STYLETHREAD -- LET'S TALK SHOP!

FashionPrincess · Hermes

RE: Help me think of an excuse..

rar210 · Marc Jacobs

I've never "laid down the law" either but my husband wouldn't have lunch/coffee anything outside of regular business/work enviroment with another women. He just has respect for me and wouldn't want to give any wrong impression to anyone who may see him. I'm the same way with him. I'm an insuranace and real estate agent and there are a TON of men in my field of work, but we simply meet at our offices for meetings and drive seperatly when attending meetings elsewhere. I live in the south, in a small town. If I were out to dinner with another man (regardless of how innocent it was), news would spread and it would It's a personal choice.

JoceyBaby23 · Gucci

rar210 wrote:

I've never "laid down the law" either but my husband wouldn't have lunch/coffee anything outside of regular business/work enviroment with another women. He just has respect for me and wouldn't want to give any wrong impression to anyone who may see him. I'm the same way with him. I'm an insuranace and real estate agent and there are a TON of men in my field of work, but we simply meet at our offices for meetings and drive seperatly when attending meetings elsewhere. I live in the south, in a small town. If I were out to dinner with another man (regardless of how innocent it was), news would spread and it would It's a personal choice.

I am referring to business and work-related lunch/dinner/coffee meetings only.

If you aren't talking business.. then it's probably a date. And that is obviously not okay!

But when I look around a restaurant and see men and women sitting together.. I think it is usually VERY clear who is there on a business meeting and who is there for pleasure. The body language, tone, and attire are usually tell-tale signs why the people are having lunch together. Also, if I am on a business lunch with my boss, the fact that I am taking notes should indicate to others that the meeting is strictly business. Flirting can be seen from a mile away (IMHO) and if the man and woman are not doing anything suspicious then I couldn't care less if people in my town are "talking".

(I'm glad we can share like this on ST.. As many of these comments are foreign to my typical train of thought. I am always learning. :) )

NCshopper · Hermes

This is a really interesting discussion. I can definitely appreciate both points of view, but I tend to think that if the marriage is lacking in trust, respect, communication, etc., and someone cheats, then the cheating is the result of a marriage that isn't working; it isn't the result of working with someone. A cheater in a bad relationship will probably cheat anyway, regardless of the circumstances.

That being said, I try to stay away from situations where it might look questionable. However, sometimes meeting with my boss, or a coworker, to discuss staff issues, personnel problems, or salary either requires a closed-door meeting or requires going to a place like Starbucks where it's away from the office. Jocey's right about body language--you can tell from a mile away if two people are doing business or if something else is going on.

Anyway, I think it was Kitty who posted originally--I'd find a way to politely turn this guy down. Tell him he can pick it up at the front desk, and thanks for the invite, but you're swamped with work, or just tell him it's too late and you've already sent it. If you get the vibe that he's asking you out, then that's probably what's going on. Since you're not working on a project together and he's not trying to network with you, then it doesn't serve a business purpose.

Metric · Gucci

This is very interesting. I had no idea that some people were really conservative about being with a member of the opposite sex.

So FP, Rar- let me ask you this: If you are put in a position where you are required to be with a member of the opposite sex, how do you get around it? Hypothetically speaking, say you are inline for a promotion. You boss (a man, married, 15 years older than you, strictly professional)wants to talk about it with you and help you prepare for the internal interview with his bosses. But your office is full of nosy Nellies so a meeting in the office would get everyone talking about you getting promoted. So your boss offers to take you for a business lunch -strictly business, there has never ever been any flirting or anything of a suggestive nature. Do you say no? How do you broach it?

laken1 · Hermes

I was trying to keep my mouth shut, but I can't help it anymore. In my "previous life" I was a small business lender & the majority of the people I worked with & my customers were men. I was invited on both strictly business lunches & even drinks after work with both supervisors & with customers both when I was married & after I got divorced. I clearly knew who was strictly business & who was "putting it out there" just in case I was interested. And with primarily married men. I can see both sides of this issue & can see how easily a few innocent lunches turn into flirtation / inappropriate behavior. It doesn't take long either.

I have to assume that any attractive female in a male dominated field would see the same. Those of you who seem to disagree with FP & Rar - are you telling me that married men or single men that knew you were married (or in a serious relationshop) have never ever not even once been inappropriate or flirtatous with you? I would find that very hard to believe. I guess my point is that I think we all can tell a difference & if Kitty felt it was uncomfortable for her, she should go with her gut - I believe firmly in woman's intuition.

ETA: this is just the most interesting discussion - I am riveted.

-- Edited by laken1 at 22:11, 2006-07-06

Kitty · Hermes

It's funny because I do things all the time alone with my male boss and male coworkers and never think twice about it. I guess its because I have like ZERO feelings for them and I know that nothing would ever develop. My boss is seriously like my Dad..he even makes those corny Dad-jokes. If there was a coworker or colleague or whatever that I even remotely thought was attractive or sensed even the smallest bit of chemistry, I think it would be totally different.

JoceyBaby23 · Gucci

laken1 wrote:

I was trying to keep my mouth shut, but I can't help it anymore. In my "previous life" I was a small business lender & the majority of the people I worked with & my customers were men. I was invited on both strictly business lunches & even drinks after work with both supervisors & with customers both when I was married & after I got divorced. I clearly knew who was strictly business & who was "putting it out there" just in case I was interested. And with primarily married men. I can see both sides of this issue & can see how easily a few innocent lunches turn into flirtation / inappropriate behavior. It doesn't take long either.

I have to assume that any attractive female in a male dominated field would see the same. Those of you who seem to disagree with FP & Rar - are you telling me that married men or single men that knew you were married (or in a serious relationshop) have never ever not even once been inappropriate or flirtatous with you? I would find that very hard to believe. I guess my point is that I think we all can tell a difference & if Kitty felt it was uncomfortable for her, she should go with her gut - I believe firmly in woman's intuition.

ETA: this is just the most interesting discussion - I am riveted. -- Edited by laken1 at 22:11, 2006-07-06

Just a few more comments.. just because I am loving this thread as well.

Of course if Kitty is feeling uncomfortable with this man.. then by all means blow him off, back away from the situation whatever necessary. I was never disagreeing with her feelings or intuitions.

I have never been sexually harassed at work or otherwise. Flirted with.. innocently.. absolutely. Maybe I just have tough skin. But I have never felt any of my business relationships were innopropriate or made me uncomfortable. And having been with my husband since I started working in a professional career, no one has ever "made a pass" at me and no situation has ever made me feel guilty for being in a committed relationship.
Flirting is a tricky topic. Friends have told me that I can be flirtatious. Not really sexually flirtatious.. more of a charming and sweet flirtatiousness. (if that makes sense) I don't even call myself flirtatious.. but I would label myself as charming (when I wanna be) :)
That said, sometimes I think people can confuse the two types. Being charming, likeable and social can be difficult in a work environment. The trick is to NEVER cross the line of sexual. Everyday while talking to male co-workers and even my boss who is male and only a few years older than my husband.... I make a conscious effort to be friendly and likeable.. while staying completely professional and non-sexual.
I wake up in the morning KNOWING that I will be working closely with males that day. BUT I am deeply in love with DH and would NEVER allow it to go to that next level of sexual flirting or more. And any committed and devoted man, would kiss his wife goodbye in the morning will every intention of remaining faithful and respectful to his wife that day while at work.
Let's face it.. There are scumbag men who go to work looking for an affair and their are promisuous women who do the same.
Then there are the rest of us... who treat business relationships just as they are. And do not need to set any boundaries to ensure that we remain faithful to our husbands or wives.

kenzie · Chanel

JoceyBaby23 wrote:

Just a few more comments.. just because I am loving this thread as well. Of course if Kitty is feeling uncomfortable with this man.. then by all means blow him off, back away from the situation whatever necessary. I was never disagreeing with her feelings or intuitions. I have never been sexually harassed at work or otherwise. Flirted with.. innocently.. absolutely. Maybe I just have tough skin. But I have never felt any of my business relationships were innopropriate or made me uncomfortable. And having been with my husband since I started working in a professional career, no one has ever "made a pass" at me and no situation has ever made me feel guilty for being in a committed relationship. Flirting is a tricky topic. Friends have told me that I can be flirtatious. Not really sexually flirtatious.. more of a charming and sweet flirtatiousness. (if that makes sense) I don't even call myself flirtatious.. but I would label myself as charming (when I wanna be) :) That said, sometimes I think people can confuse the two types. Being charming, likeable and social can be difficult in a work environment. The trick is to NEVER cross the line of sexual. Everyday while talking to male co-workers and even my boss who is male and only a few years older than my husband.... I make a conscious effort to be friendly and likeable.. while staying completely professional and non-sexual. I wake up in the morning KNOWING that I will be working closely with males that day. BUT I am deeply in love with DH and would NEVER allow it to go to that next level of sexual flirting or more. And any committed and devoted man, would kiss his wife goodbye in the morning will every intention of remaining faithful and respectful to his wife that day while at work. Let's face it.. There are scumbag men who go to work looking for an affair and their are promisuous women who do the same. Then there are the rest of us... who treat business relationships just as they are. And do not need to set any boundaries to ensure that we remain faithful to our husbands or wives.

Well said, Jocey. This sums up how I feel as well.

bex · Chanel

FashionPrincess wrote:

IMO, it's never acceptable for a married person to have lunch/coffee/ride in a vehicle/do anything alone with someone of the opposite sex. Even if it's just innocent, it gives the appearance of something else and can lead to rumors and sometimes can foster a friendship that can lead to feelings that they shouldn't be having.

i'll be honest, i haven't read the entire way through this thread yet- but my job requires me to have lunches with other men and also ride along with them in their cars to visit clients. i can't escape it and i've never thought that it was innapproriate. a lot of times, i have no idea if they are married or not when i get into their car in the morning and often it doesn't even come up.

okay, i've read it all now- and this thread is one of the fascinating i've read on here lately. i had no idea this train of thought existed.

laken- you said " I clearly knew who was strictly business & who was "putting it out there" just in case I was interested. And with primarily married men. I can see both sides of this issue & can see how easily a few innocent lunches turn into flirtation / inappropriate behavior. It doesn't take long either. "

it is VERY easy for me to see who is "putting it out there" too. my field tends to be very flirtateous and as a matter of fact, i have a dinner scheduled with one of my sales managers next week that i think could be a potential disaster b/c i think he is "putting it out there" but i'm not entirely sure b/c we do have business to discuss. so... i know going in, that i have to remain cool and keep business first so he knows that i am not on that path with him at all. i can't avoid the dinner- but i can avoid having him thinking there might be more there when there is obviously not.

-- Edited by bex at 13:54, 2006-07-07

halleybird · Hermes

This is an interesting thread! I read all of the responses a couple of days ago, and have been thinking about it a lot.

I think it would bother me a lot more if my husband were choosing to go to lunch (on his free time, not as a meeting) with a female co-worker. As far as riding in cars, lunch meetings, etc -- I think sometimes that is necessary, though it depends on the field.

About once a month, a male, married colleague and I carpool to a meeting across town to save $ on gas. He's older than my dad and I have known him and his wife for years, so it never struck me as inappropriate. Furthermore, I think I'd be really offended if his wife didn't want him driving with me, only because it would seem like a comment on the level of MY professionalism as well.

Interesting side note, since the thread is already pretty much hijacked -- how do you guys feel about emails between male friends? I am friends with a couple I have known for years. I was friends with each of them independently before they even started dating. I would occasionally email one or the other of them, usually forwarding articles, etc. (nothing especially personal or conversational). After they got married, I noticed that if I emailed the guy something and he responded, he would always cc his wife, even if it was something that was more specific to his work field/didn't concern her, etc. It threw me, only because I wondered if one or the other of them thought I was being inappropriate by emailing him. So now I always email them both, no matter what it's about.

ETA: I think the most important thing is that both you and your spouse/SO are comfortable with your work/friend situation and that your limits are acceptable to both of you, no matter what they are. I DO think that people who are apt to cheat will do so anyway, regardless of how easy it is.

-- Edited by halleybird at 19:47, 2006-07-08

Kelly · Hermes

halleybird wrote:

Interesting side note, since the thread is already pretty much hijacked -- how do you guys feel about emails between male friends? I am friends with a couple I have known for years. I was friends with each of them independently before they even started dating. I would occasionally email one or the other of them, usually forwarding articles, etc. (nothing especially personal or conversational). After they got married, I noticed that if I emailed the guy something and he responded, he would always cc his wife, even if it was something that was more specific to his work field/didn't concern her, etc. It threw me, only because I wondered if one or the other of them thought I was being inappropriate by emailing him. So now I always email them both, no matter what it's about.

That's so weird! If one or both of them felt you were being inappropriate, I feel like that's their own problem. If you're emailing someone about their field, or something like that, I think it's silly that she would want to monitor his conversations. She can't listen in every time someone talks to him, why would she think his email conversations would be worse, or something worth monitoring more? Personally, I would be annoyed if my SO cc'd me on everything. I don't have time to read every conversation someone else has.

I think it's good that you email them both now, though. Obviously, for whatever reason, they want to be kept aware of the others' conversations, and I think it's very considerate of you to respect that.

-- Edited by ttara123 at 02:29, 2006-07-10

travelgirl · Kate Spade

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halleybird · Hermes

RE: Help me think of an excuse..

atlgirl · Gucci

Fascinating, indeed. I am completely surprised at some of the responses here, but to each their own. I'm thinking that DH and I must be having a very "open" marriage in this regard. :)

I think it would bother me a lot more if my husband were choosing to go to lunch (on his free time, not as a meeting) with a female co-worker. As far as riding in cars, lunch meetings, etc -- I think sometimes that is necessary, though it depends on the field.

My husband definitely chooses to go to lunch with co-workers, and I have no issue with that. Many of his female co-workers, including his boss, are friends of mine as well. I'd guess about 85% of those lunch discussions are business, but I know there is some personal discussion as well - and it doesn't bother me in the least. (not jumping on you, halleybird, BTW)

DH regularly travels with female co-workers to visit clients, as part of his job. This includes flying together (and sometimes carpooling to the airport), sharing a rental car, etc. I cannot imagine how he would do his job without having "alone time" with female co-workers. They often go to dinner together while on the road, since they are in a strange city and only know each other and the client.

One of his co-workers' husband works about five minutes from our house. We go to lunch semi-regularly (about every 4-6 weeks), and he has been to our house for lunch, to help me with our computer. Neither his wife, nor my husband, think twice about it. The four of us are friends and see each other socially every couple of months or so.

We've been married six years and together for nearly eight. There has never been a hint of impropriety and we trust each other implicitly about this kind of stuff.

I think the most important thing is that both you and your spouse/SO are comfortable with your work/friend situation and that your limits are acceptable to both of you, no matter what they are.

ITA. Both parties must be comfortable with the boundaries they set, or resentment and suspicion can build up.

laken1 · Hermes

DH got home so I told him of this discussion. His response was pretty simple - it depended on who the parties were - BOTH parties. It's not that he doesn't trust me, but that there were people he wouldn't give a second thought to me having lunch or even drinks with & others that would inwardly irritate him. He said there were also people he would not go to lunch with, etc for similar reasons. But his job really doesn't require him to have much one on one private / out of office meetings. His boss is female & so is one of the 4 people that work under him, so he said he didn't think it was fair to treat the one girl differently just because she's a girl. And he said his relationship with his female boss is pretty much the same as the one with his previous boss. I think I have to agree with all that.

Have any of you brought this up to your DH or SO? If so, what was his response, I'm curious.

And HB, I think that whole email thing is insane. I would be all kinds of pissed at DH if he expected to by copied on correspondence with any males in my life & visa versa. That seems strange to me, but kudos to you for recognizing it & pretty much doing it their way. To each their own, I guess!

JoceyBaby23 · Gucci

laken1 wrote:

Have any of you brought this up to your DH or SO? If so, what was his response, I'm curious.

I did. DH laughed and said that if either us had a problem with the other riding in a car with or having lunch with someone of the opposite sex that we would have been divorced after 2 weeks. (Because it's just normal and unavoidable in the situations that we're in.)

He did agree with you about WHO the person is. I used to work closely with a guy (who never made a pass at me) but DH met him at a work party and he said there was just something about him that DH didn't trust. But he still said he wouldn't have said anything or been mad.. but he may have called me during a lunch meeting just to make sure I was okay.