STYLETHREAD -- LET'S TALK SHOP!

tina242 · Kate Spade

Speaking Spanish in school = suspended!

wicked · Coach

Wow, this really makes me mad and is totally discriminatory. How does speaking Spanish indicate that you don't have a mastery of English?

laken1 · Hermes

Wow, that is completely the opposite of the schools here in Texas - they are trying to implement a law that principals have to learn to speak spanish or step down.

Metric · Gucci

How strange that times don't change very much- in the 1920's & 30's my Grandfather was given "the paddle" if he spoke Slovak (my family is from Chezkoslovakia and immigrated to Canada in 1925) in school. Nice to see that we have gotten so much more tolerant since then

tina242 · Kate Spade

'California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger (R) made that point this summer when he vetoed a bill authorizing various academic subjects to be tested in Spanish in the state's public schools. "As an immigrant," the Austrian-born governor said, "I know the importance of mastering English as quickly and as comprehensively as possible."'

Ok sure, for his acting career, I'm sure mastering English was important. I don't get how it's wrong to speak a different language in America when it's your 1st language. I have some compassion. Sure it's frustrating to try to communicate, but geez. People always say, "If you're in America you better speak English." I'm like well then I better never visit Italy, France, Mexico (visited already 3 times), etc. until I learn the languages!!

Here's a joke my friend Robert told me (he's from Africa and speaks 3 languages):

What do you call someone who speaks three languages? Trilingual

What do you call someone who speaks 2 languages? Bilingual

What do you call someone who speaks 1 language? American

laken1 · Hermes

tina242 wrote:

I don't get how it's wrong to speak a different language in America when it's your 1st language. I have some compassion. Sure it's frustrating to try to communicate, but geez. People always say, "If you're in America you better speak English." I'm like well then I better never visit Italy, France, Mexico (visited already 3 times), etc. until I learn the languages!!

I think there is a difference between taking a vacation & not speaking the primary language when you intend to live there. I don't think you should HAVE to speak the language if you move here, but wouldn't you make an effort to learn some basics once you moved? If I moved to Paris, for instance, I'd surely learn French when I got there. I shouldn't have to speak another language to do business / check out of a store / order food / buy insurance / insert your job here in America. Should I learn every other language in case someone else doesn't speak English?

ETA: i don't agree with the suspension, either, btw, just to be clear.

-- Edited by laken1 at 18:27, 2005-12-20

Maddie · Coach

tina242 wrote:

'California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger (R) made that point this summer when he vetoed a bill authorizing various academic subjects to be tested in Spanish in the state's public schools. "As an immigrant," the Austrian-born governor said, "I know the importance of mastering English as quickly and as comprehensively as possible."'
Ok sure, for his acting career, I'm sure mastering English was important. I don't get how it's wrong to speak a different language in America when it's your 1st language. I have some compassion. Sure it's frustrating to try to communicate, but geez. People always say, "If you're in America you better speak English." I'm like well then I better never visit Italy, France, Mexico (visited already 3 times), etc. until I learn the languages!!
Here's a joke my friend Robert told me (he's from Africa and speaks 3 languages):
What do you call someone who speaks three languages? Trilingual
What do you call someone who speaks 2 languages? Bilingual
What do you call someone who speaks 1 language? American

Long hijack because this subject irritates me...

I will agree that this kid's suspension is completely outrageous. But, other than that, I don't see any consistency in your points.

I really don't think Arnold is saying it's "wrong" to speak Spanish. I think Arnold probably couldn't care less if someone speaks Spanish in their daily life (of course this is speculation). People are free to speak whatever they want, but if they wish to take part in American public education, they have to do so in English. To me, this makes perfect sense. First of all, it would be costly to run a second school system in Spanish, but most importantly it would be divisive. Although the US does not have a de jure national language, English is certainly the de facto one. Why educate people in another language? Part of the job of the public education system is not just to teach students academic subjects, but also to teach them to be good Americans, for example, fostering an appreciation for a democratic form of government. Isn't speaking an English a part of that? Countries that currently have multiple national languages are that way because they have been that way forever, not because they are adding new ones.

I also believe that a Spanish education would only be setting those students up for failure in the real world. You say that learning English was only good for Arnold's acting career. What about his political career? What if he wanted to be a lawyer? A teacher? An electrician? Anything? Don't you think English is important for most careers in the US? A non-English speaker has a lot of doors besides Hollywood's closed to them.

I do not feel like like "If you're in America you better speak English." I really don't care, speak what you want. But if you expect to benefit from the American system, I would suggest learning English. If I were just to visit Italy, I certainly wouldn't bother to become fluent in Italian, but there is a huge difference between being a tourist and being a resident. It would be stupid of me to move to Italy and expect the country to accomodate me. As a tourist, that's how it goes.

Also, while I don't disagree with your joke, it goes against your point. You are encouraging Spanish speakers to not bother to learn English. They're just as monolingual as I am, only in a different language.

As a side note, while Americans are notorious for only speaking English, the reason is we don't have to speak anything else. Learning other languages is the US is for the most part an intellectual pursuit, whereas for many other countries it is a necessity, as I'm guessing is the case of your African friend. If everyone conducts business in English, there is no need for us to learn anything else. Not that I think this is a good thing, but the reason the French are learnning English isn't because they're smarter or better educated (though they might be), it's because English is the international language of business.

halleybird · Hermes

laken1 wrote:

I don't think you should HAVE to speak the language if you move here, but wouldn't you make an effort to learn some basics once you moved? If I moved to Paris, for instance, I'd surely learn French when I got there. I shouldn't have to speak another language to do business / check out of a store / order food / buy insurance / insert your job here in America. Should I learn every other language in case someone else doesn't speak English?

Well, I see your point here, but the United States has no official language. Sure, most people here speak primarily English, but that is changing. If you look at the demographic projections in years to come, the Hispanic population (many of whom speak Spanish) is growing exponentially. 50 years from now, we may have to be a bilingual society. I think the future of this country will be one similar to European countries, where speaking two languages (at least conversationally) is the norm.

Also, it is a common misconception that immigrants (especially Spanish-speaking ones) don't make an effort to learn English. It is a very desperate struggle for some of them, who could be working 2-3 jobs just to stay afloat and trying to learn English on the side. Growing up in Phoenix and Tucson, I have known a lot of immigrants and their families, and none of them had the attitude of "I am not going to learn English, because people will give me information in Spanish." It's just that learning a language is a process, and many of the immigrants who come here from Mexico don't have the opportunity to learn before they get here.

That said, I think what happened to that kid is horrible. I do think English immersion education works IF it is taught correctly, but the point is not to exclude the native language. At our school, students in all levels of Spanish classes (even introductory) are required to speak the language at all times with their teachers.

honey · Gucci

i agree with maddie. i think it's horrible that a kid was suspended for speaking another language in school, however i do think it's important that people who immigrate to the US make an effort to learn english.

it's definitely a problem with our education system, and granted we don't have an official language. but i do think learning english is important. and while i don't disagree with you halleybird, i encounter many, many immigrants who don't bother to learn english. i work in an immigration law firm and it's insane the number of clients we encounter who just don't bother to learn english. and i'm not talking about people who just stepped off a plane. i've had to work with sooo many clients who have essentially made lives here (lived here for 20+ years) and don't speak any english at all. to the point where when they call our office they can't even ask for the person who is helping them with their case b/c they don't know enough english to say "can i speak with so & so." while i'm in no ways a nationalist, it can be irksome, to say the least.

theotherjess · Chanel

Are you sure there isn't more to the story? If so, that is very sad that someone would be suspended for simply speaking in another language. What if it was an English speaking student who was practicing something he learned in Spanish class? Would that kid have been suspended too? I could understand if he was saying something bad in Spanish or using a threatening tone, but for lending a kid a dollar? I don't know, it just seems like we're not getting the full story.

blink · Coach

It sounds like something is missing from this story, like maybe the kid isn't being honest about what he actually said. But, if it really is as concrete as it was reported, then the school district should have somebody's head.

tina242 · Kate Spade

Maddie wrote:

Long hijack because this subject irritates me... I will agree that this kid's suspension is completely outrageous. But, other than that, I don't see any consistency in your points. I really don't think Arnold is saying it's "wrong" to speak Spanish. I think Arnold probably couldn't care less if someone speaks Spanish in their daily life (of course this is speculation). People are free to speak whatever they want, but if they wish to take part in American public education, they have to do so in English. To me, this makes perfect sense. First of all, it would be costly to run a second school system in Spanish, but most importantly it would be divisive. Although the US does not have a de jure national language, English is certainly the de facto one. Why educate people in another language? Part of the job of the public education system is not just to teach students academic subjects, but also to teach them to be good Americans, for example, fostering an appreciation for a democratic form of government. Isn't speaking an English a part of that? Countries that currently have multiple national languages are that way because they have been that way forever, not because they are adding new ones. I also believe that a Spanish education would only be setting those students up for failure in the real world. You say that learning English was only good for Arnold's acting career. What about his political career? What if he wanted to be a lawyer? A teacher? An electrician? Anything? Don't you think English is important for most careers in the US? A non-English speaker has a lot of doors besides Hollywood's closed to them. I do not feel like like "If you're in America you better speak English." I really don't care, speak what you want. But if you expect to benefit from the American system, I would suggest learning English. If I were just to visit Italy, I certainly wouldn't bother to become fluent in Italian, but there is a huge difference between being a tourist and being a resident. It would be stupid of me to move to Italy and expect the country to accomodate me. As a tourist, that's how it goes. Also, while I don't disagree with your joke, it goes against your point. You are encouraging Spanish speakers to not bother to learn English. They're just as monolingual as I am, only in a different language. As a side note, while Americans are notorious for only speaking English, the reason is we don't have to speak anything else. Learning other languages is the US is for the most part an intellectual pursuit, whereas for many other countries it is a necessity, as I'm guessing is the case of your African friend. If everyone conducts business in English, there is no need for us to learn anything else. Not that I think this is a good thing, but the reason the French are learnning English isn't because they're smarter or better educated (though they might be), it's because English is the international language of business.

Maddie, whoa whoa whoa first of all, I am not saying Spanish speakers shouldn't learn English.

I agree that learning English is also helpful for Arnold's political career and otherwise. I also agree that becoming a resident of the U.S. and learning English is beneficial in all aspects of life, from school to a career to everyday communication. I was not implying that Arnold cares if someone speaks Spanish (for example) in their everyday life. I was not saying all testing should be done at all times in Spanish as well as in English, but there might be circumstances where it's appropriate. For example, if a child just moved here and barely knows English, but is making an attempt to learn it, is it fair to him/her to force him/her to test in his/her second language before he/she is completely comfortable with speaking and reading English? This could adversely affect his test score. I do agree with your point that testing in different languages can be expensive.

I agree it's different to learn a language when visiting vs. when living in another country. That was a light-hearted comment typed in haste. I don't think that the U.S. has an official language. English is the nation's dominant language, but as a democratic society, we should not force English upon everyone at all times. I agree with Halleybird that learning another language is a process, and can be a struggle. Of course there are people who don't even attempt to learn the language, and that is their choice. It's frustrating to a point, but my reaction while trying to communicate with a Spanish-speaker is that I feel bad for not knowing Spanish (mainly Spanish more than other languages. I don't really expect myself to know, i.e., Swahili, but I did take Spanish class for 3 years and have been to Mexico 3 times). I really think we're moving toward becoming a bilingual society and people are trying to stop that.

I am not encouraging Spanish speakers not to learn English. My joke implies that the "American" is English-speaking; I assumed that goes without saying. (Hey, I thought it was funny!) Of course Americans don't have to learn another language, but why not learn? It can only benefit you. Once again, that's their choice.

This is what makes me irritated: "Most people, they don't care where you're from," said Zach's father, Lorenzo Rubio, a native of Veracruz, Mexico, who has lived in Kansas City for a quarter-century. "But sometimes, when they hear my accent, I get this, sort of, 'Why don't you go back home?' " To me, that is pure ignorance. It's like, why don't you go back to your home and sit there trying to ignore the fact that world is changing?

Hello? We in America are all immigrants!!!

As for the story, I think it was simply that he was suspended for speaking Spanish at school. That's what I understood. Not sure why...

-- Edited by tina242 at 23:53, 2006-09-08

NCshopper · Hermes

theotherjess wrote:

Are you sure there isn't more to the story? If so, that is very sad that someone would be suspended for simply speaking in another language. What if it was an English speaking student who was practicing something he learned in Spanish class? Would that kid have been suspended too? I could understand if he was saying something bad in Spanish or using a threatening tone, but for lending a kid a dollar? I don't know, it just seems like we're not getting the full story.

This is EXACTLY what I was thinking. You read my mind. I have a feeling we're not getting the full story here. This story completely excludes the school's POV and all we're getting here really is the 16 year old's account of what happened, which may or may not be the whole story.

Cortney1982 · Chanel

Here's my take on it...

That is quite ridicuous if a kid got suspended from school while speaking Spanish on lunch break. Now if they were speaking down to somebody in Spanish, that would be something else. There has got to be more to this.

I spent 1 year in this high school where they had a large population of Spanish kids. They didn't speak English so they were all in special classes together. Obviously they didn't learn English at all since none of them could speak it after the year was over! What irritated me the most that these kids were handed 4.0 grades (I saw the report cards) just because they attented school, while the rest of us had to work hard and actually study just to get a 3.0!

At work I will get Spanish customers who don't speak a lick of Engilsh. They expect us to speak Spanish! They think it's a requirement that at least a Spanish speaking employee be available to them at their disposal at all times. I know it's not difficult to learn a few words to get by in the real world! I once had this Spanish couple who could speak some English, and they were interested to learn the word 'stapler' and how to pronounce my name. I thought it was great that they wanted to learn everything they could.

Well, anyways I am trying to learn Spanish. I have gotten myself computer software to learn. This way I can succeed in the workplace and feel smart that I can speak two languages!

jj · Kate Spade

This is from the end of the article:

The district immediately rescinded Zach's suspension, local media reported. The superintendent did not respond to several requests to comment for this article.

It seems to me that the school realized they made a mistake and quickly reversed the decision. As long as they refuse to comment we may never know why it happened. The whole thing is just very bizarre.

Dizzy · Marc Jacobs

I think the big problem is that if we force kids to speak english only in school, then they won't have access to an education until they learn english pretty well. That's not constitutional, and since my family is Latin, and my mom experienced a lot of discrimination when she was little, I think it's basically unfair too. If we're the land of opportunity, founded by immigrants, why should we basically sacrifice the first generation of immigrants (because they won't be able to get an education)? Why not let them learn sooner, so that then they can participate sooner?

As for the stores and all that, I dont' see what the big deal is. If a business owner doesn't have spanish speaking employees, he's missing out on probably a lot of business. But that's his choice. And if an immigrant chooses not to learn the language here, he's limiting his opportunities. But that's his choice. Why would the rest of us take these choices personally?

Oh, and I totally agree with Halleybird, I don't think most immigrants are too lazy to learn the language. Most of the ones I've met through work or whatever were working at least two jobs and raising a family. I can't handle any of that, so I'm not going to judge them for not signing up for a class. And I have had the hardest time learning spanish for fun from a tape, so I REALLY can't say anything there...

-- Edited by Dizzy at 07:22, 2005-12-26

Hermione · Kate Spade

I don't have time just at this moment (something on the stove!) to read everyone's responses, but i say this:

In class, it is important for students to speak english, especially for those who come from backgrounds where maybe their family speaks only spanish or some other language - this is going to help them in the long run, and it makes sense that they should speak the language the class is being conducted in.

that said, i also think it's no problem to speak it in the hall, in between class, whatever. that's totally controlling the child's personal conversations and i think it is ridiculous.

i have alot of opinions on things involving language, however, as a language major.

in some countries (example, lebanon) msot of the schooling is conducted in an entirely different language than is spoken in everyday situations. in lebanon, though they speak lebanese, the schooling is conducted in french. i think this gives kids a great advantage in business and culturally.

i wish united states would take a more proactive approach to making their kids multilingual, as i plan to do with my own (when i have them)

perhaps here we should consider conducting more than a few classes in spanish? this is not to "cater to immigrants" but to advance our children in the future, where it is likely, as halleybird said, that we will be a bilingual society. it is important for the children to know both their mother tongue well, but at least one other language, IMO.

berryahou35 · Dooney & Bourke

tina242 wrote:

Here's a joke my friend Robert told me (he's from Africa and speaks 3 languages): What do you call someone who speaks three languages? Trilingual What do you call someone who speaks 2 languages? Bilingual What do you call someone who speaks 1 language? American

That summarizes it all

e_doli · Dooney & Bourke

Dizzy wrote:

I think the big problem is that if we force kids to speak english only in school, then they won't have access to an education until they learn english pretty well. That's not constitutional, and since my family is Latin, and my mom experienced a lot of discrimination when she was little, I think it's basically unfair too. If we're the land of opportunity, founded by immigrants, why should we basically sacrifice the first generation of immigrants (because they won't be able to get an education)? Why not let them learn sooner, so that then they can participate sooner? As for the stores and all that, I dont' see what the big deal is.

I totally agree with dizzy here. of course students who do not speak english should learn to speak english. but this cannot be at the expense of the rest of their education. the rest of their education cannot be put on hold while they become proficient enought in english to get by in the classes.

i was have a degree in spanish and a lot of my undergrad classes were literature and civ classes taught 100% in spanish. as a non-native speaker of spanish, it was really difficul for me to get everything out of these classes that the native spanish speakers did. (imagine taking a 300-400 level english class, and then put it in another language, so you have to figure out what is being said literally and then interpret it figuratively -- very challenging) now imagine grade school and high school kids having to do this -- how much do you think they'll really get out of the education?