STYLETHREAD -- LET'S TALK SHOP!

Mia · Kate Spade

This is...unbelievably awful.

lsubatgirl · Gucci

OMG Mia that is just awful!!! I had no idea that this is happening. Poor animals. Ever since Halleybird posted the article on fur and faux fur sometimes being real I have boycotted anything that resembles fur. I am definetly going to continue. NO animal should be treated this way. It just makes me furious!!!

jacL · Coach

That is sick and this is an issue that has been boiling for some time now. I really hope it is put to an end soon, but how is boycotting China as a country as well as its many goods going to stop this unnecessary and cruel treatment of animals? Fur is not their only good.

NCshopper · Hermes

Ugh. Hearing about animals getting mistreated just makes me sick. I can't even read the articles about it. I had to just skim the one you posted.

It seems to me that the issue of mistreating animals for their fur (not just in China, but everywhere) gets a lot of press every winter. It seems to be pretty well known that the animals get treated horribly, but every winter fur just pops back up in the stores. I don't get it. Are people actually buying it? I won't, but I'm always surprised that mass retailers continue to stock it.

I definitely see your points on this issue Mia, but I'm not really sure I see the connection where boycotting all of China's products will help stop the treatment of animals in the fur industry in China. And I'm not saying that to be antagonistic, I'm just wondering if there's an explanation for the China boycott. Also, how do you get away with not buying any Chinese products? "Made in China" stickers are on practically everything nowadays, not including products where pieces get made in China, but the resulting product gets assembled elsewhere.

blink · Coach

This story is so infuriating. And yep, it's yet another reason to boycott China....it's incredibly frustrating too because "Made in China" is stamped on the back of so many bargain buys. Have you all been watching financial news programs lately? Keep your eye on news about the future of China, it's a little alarming how powerful they are becoming.

halleybird · Hermes

I couldn't even finish that article. That totally disgusts me. And people also don't believe it -- I have mentioned this issue to a number of people (and even posted once on another board) and all I hear is, "that can't be true." I guess denial makes them feel better.

Mia · Kate Spade

I didn't claim to be making a logical/rational stand. I doubt my refusal to buy goods from China/visit China/watch the Olympics will make a practical difference. It's simply about ethics and emotions to me. That isn't the way a civilized nation behaves and I want *nothing* to do with a society capable of things like that. It's personal, that's all.

China also has a problem treating many of it's humans humanely. There are a lot of reasons to boycott China, from the ethical to the economic - I posted what I posted because I feel like it needs publicity and that that publicity might hopefully, eventually, have some effect.

And fur farming is not the same everywhere. Animals *can* be farmed/slaughtered humanely. Doing what is described in that article, to cats and dogs, and, for one example, stunning cattle before they are slaughtered - those are two different things to me. One includes deliberate and unimaginable suffering, one includes much less suffering/consciousness.

kenzie · Chanel

Mia wrote:

I didn't claim to be making a logical/rational stand. I doubt my refusal to buy goods from China/visit China/watch the Olympics will make a practical difference. It's simply about ethics and emotions to me. That isn't the way a civilized nation behaves and I want *nothing* to do with a society capable of things like that. It's personal, that's all.

It actually is quite rational if enough people would participate. If sales of all of China's exported goods begin to suffer and the reason is noted as a boycott to this awful fur issue (I'm so disgusted I can't even speak eloquently on the subject), then China will be forced, for the good of their economy to stop it. But, only if this is a huge, large scale boycott. One or two or even several thousand people isn't enough. It would take a country to really make the difference. We need to write to our congressman!

Mia · Kate Spade

You're right, Nylabelle - I just don't hold out much hope of that happening! The footage aired on the BBC 6 o clock news in England on Monday and the British are notorious animal lovers so I am hoping something will come of it. In the meantime, China doesn't get a red cent from me and I tell everyone I know about this (sadly, many people react with disbelief and refuse to investigate further on their own).

lynnie · Chanel

disgusting. i try not to even wear fake fur because of the fur look- halleybird said she did the same thing. and i got so bummed- a pair of super cute boots from j crew had rabbit fur on them. grr. i woulda bought them if the fur was fake- i'd make some exceptions.

however, i don't really see the point of boycotting china. its a huge country, with honest people as well as sickos. reminds me too much of liberty fries when we were anti-france. i think the fur industry probably exists in a lot of countries, and possibly just as cruel.

amazingfruit · Nine West

lynnie wrote:

however, i don't really see the point of boycotting china. its a huge country, with honest people as well as sickos. reminds me too much of liberty fries when we were anti-france. i think the fur industry probably exists in a lot of countries, and possibly just as cruel.

Ditto.

It's a country of over a billion. I don't think 99.99% even know what's going on with their fur trade. There are a lot of good, kind people in China. Boycotting all their goods isn't going to help anyone. In fact, if the boycott were to make any impact, those who would feel it strongest would probably be the poor.

I personally won't buy fur because I just don't like the idea. I can understand the personal decision of choosing to not buy fur from China, but demonizing the whole country and debasing their civilization based on what a fraction a percent of the population does is unfair.

I'm happy that McCartney is trying to bring publicity to the issue, but he's really stretching it in my opinion. Boycotting the whole country and saying he wouldn't go over there to play? These people are not representative of the people of China. Why not just boycott the fur trade?

I really think it comes down to a matter of different values for different societies. There are many people in many countries who would find things in our country to be horrific or immoral that we probably have no qualms doing each day because it is not a value that we hold highly or even at all. It doesn't make us immoral or uncivilized, we just don't see things the same way. The people depicted in this film...this is their everyday life. They don't have value for these animals and probably view them on the same level as bugs. That's not to say I approve of what they are doing (I have a Golden and would be devastated if anything happened to him), but I don't necessarily think that this is reflective of the whole country or their level of morality.

Mia · Kate Spade

Boiling cats alive *isn't* representative of a person's morality? Uh, OK.

I am not a relativist. Hence my opinion that people who do things like this are immoral bastards.

And as for China, their record on animal AND human rights is nothing short of appalling (and yes, I know what I am talking about here - I've informed myself, for a number of years) - I said my 'boycott' was for personal reasons (and it is), but I've got no problem with someone explicitly not wanting to support China.

ejc423 · Coach

Mia, I respect your conviction and knowledge on this subject. I have to admit that I was confused when I saw that you are boycotting China, but the more I think about it, the more it makes sense.

I do have compassion for the poor, but that's no reason to support immoral acts (I doubt anyone here would knowingly support sweatshop labor just so the laborers can keep thier "jobs"). And I agree, Mia, there is no question that the inhumane slaughter of these animals is immoral. I admittedly am ignorant of many issues in China, but it is hard to ignore the lack of human and animal rights.

It makes sense to boycott China because it is an extreme position. No, it's not expected that it will really make a difference economically, but in addition to being a decision of personal conviction, the extremity ruffles feathers and raises awareness. Case in point: this discussion. Amazingfruit, you may be right that 99.99% of the people in China don't know about the fur trade. But they should. They should know when their economy depends on barbaric means. They should know that animals are being abused and people are being oppressed. And people who are being demoralized should know that they don't have to live that way.

Thank you, Mia for making me think about what action should be taken to facilitate awareness and social change.

amazingfruit · Nine West

But it's only barbaric to us because we value them as pets. It is generally accepted in this country to boil lobsters alive, but I don't see any discussion about that being immoral. We just have different values because we are in different societies.

Again, I'm not saying I'm not disgusted by what's going on or that I think it is right, I just don't think it is fair to present China in this light. We have lots of things in this country that would shock many around the world. The actions of the KKK for example. Yes, what they support and do is horrific and "barbaric" on many levels, but I think we can all agree that they are not representative of the people of this country, and it would be unfair for other people to boycott our country or call us barbarians because of the actions of a few, which I feel is what is happening in this case. Boycott the fur industry, sure. But to declare a moral judgement on the country and it's people?

ETA: Mia, I just wanted to say I do appreciate you bringing this to light, and I think boycotting the fur trade of China (or IMO just the fur trade in general) is a great idea, but we differ on the rest of it.

-- Edited by amazingfruit at 15:52, 2005-12-02

rocky · Coach

This is an especially sensitive topic for me since I am Chinese and I still have many relatives in China, and I do visit the country often. I really don't appreciate being called barbaric and immoral and having that label placed on my relatives. Most of the people in the country have no idea that this is going on, and government policy is not in the control of the people. I do not agree with the government's allowance of barbaric treatment of animals, and I can understand that you want to boycott the exports to make a stand. But the boycott of non fur related products will hurt the economy and many innocent people as a result.

ejc423 · Coach

I don't want anyone to be personally offended, so I just wanted to point out that no one called China or Chinese people as a whole immoral or barbaric. What we did call immoral and barbaric is the unethical treatment of animals. I just wanted to clarify for you, Rocky, because I know none of us are ignorant enough to believe that a whole people (or even a majority of a people) could be bad. I hope you know that judgement is not targeted at the people of China, it's targeted at the actions of a few powerful people IN China.

I understand your point, AmazingFruit, and I am not a proponent of Westernization of the rest of the world, but this type of treatment of living creatures, pets or not, disgusts me. And p.s. I don't eat lobster. At any rate, my purpose was not/is not to argue, because we obviously all feel very strongly. I am personally not boycotting China (I am boycotting the fur trade), but Mia has brought up some things that I think we all should consider.

Everyone has to choose her own way to take a stand.

rocky · Coach

Mia wrote:

I doubt my refusal to buy goods from China/visit China/watch the Olympics will make a practical difference. It's simply about ethics and emotions to me. That isn't the way a civilized nation behaves and I want *nothing* to do with a society capable of things like that. China also has a problem treating many of it's humans humanely. There are a lot of reasons to boycott China, from the ethical to the economic - I posted what I posted because I feel like it needs publicity and that that publicity might hopefully, eventually, have some effect.

I understand what you are trying to say ejc423, but comments like the ones above seem to be directed to Chinese people as a whole and I find it extremely unfair and upsetting to the point of tears.

lynnie · Chanel

rocky wrote:

Mia wrote: I doubt my refusal to buy goods from China/visit China/watch the Olympics will make a practical difference. It's simply about ethics and emotions to me. That isn't the way a civilized nation behaves and I want *nothing* to do with a society capable of things like that. China also has a problem treating many of it's humans humanely. There are a lot of reasons to boycott China, from the ethical to the economic - I posted what I posted because I feel like it needs publicity and that that publicity might hopefully, eventually, have some effect. I understand what you are trying to say ejc423, but comments like the ones above seem to be directed to Chinese people as a whole and I find it extremely unfair and upsetting to the point of tears.

i agree completely with amazingfruit and rocky. while i detest cruel treatment of animals, i also get very saddened when comments like this are said. we are all human beings, and our morals and viewpoints are circumstance of where we are born, how we are raised, and how we are educated. i could be that person in china, doing these exact things to animals, if i had been born there and was taught that that was a normal job to have, or an okay trade, or my parents did it, or it was the only way for me to make a living. so could anyone on this forum. there is a demand in this industry- that is why it exists. that is what needs to be stopped.

Mia · Kate Spade

I stand by what I said. It's not immoral because they're Chinese (really, I'd be against this if it were Ukrainians or Bolivians doing it etc.) people, it's immoral because...it's immoral. I completely accept that I am making a personal, moral judgement here.

I would object to any 'higher' animals being treated that way - cows, pigs etc., not just animals considered 'pets'. Animals can be killed humanely - torture and suffering aren't necessary and, imo, are unacceptable, no matter who's doing it or what passport they carry.

Nowhere did I say "individual Chinese people are immoral due to their being Chinese" and it isn't what I meant.

boop · Nine West

Mia wrote:

I didn't claim to be making a logical/rational stand. I doubt my refusal to buy goods from China/visit China/watch the Olympics will make a practical difference. It's simply about ethics and emotions to me. That isn't the way a civilized nation behaves and I want *nothing* to do with a society capable of things like that. It's personal, that's all.

Your missing the point Mia. I think everyone finds the torture of animals to be appalling. It's just that your comment was incredible ignorant whether or not it was aimed it at an individual Chinese. I agree with everything Rocky and Amazingfruit said.