STYLETHREAD -- LET'S TALK SHOP!

Hermes

etiquette

Boots · Gucci

You know, I think it depends on the person, your relationship with them and the situation. Ever since my friends started having kids I pretty much just assume that their kids will be at everything I do with them. I once threw a backyard cocktail party and one friend brought not only her 5 year old son with her, but his new pet crab to show off. Yeah. That was fun. I didn't specify on the invite that it was an adult only party, but then again, it was a cocktail party. I had thought it was sort of implied. But what can you do? It's not worth getting upset over.

I think in your situation you and your friend handled it well. She misunderstood your invite and once the miscommunication was cleared up, neither side felt hurt. Your friend and her husband might actually appreciate a kid free night to catch up. If the couple are the kind of friends that you want to see more of in the future, maybe you can suggest that the next get together involve the kids, like a trip to the zoo or maybe apple picking.

Hermes

I think a kid friendly invite later is a good idea. I'm actually across the street from wonderful science and art museums (this entered my mind as I re-thought including her kids for dinner.) Perhaps have them over at an earlier time so we can do museums then dinner. Actually, it would be fun to do in the fall because I have a nice outdoor firepit and we could roast marshmallows...

greendiamond · Marc Jacobs

I'm having a hard time being articulate in my reply, so I'm shortening it to just this:

You have no reason to feel guilty. You didn't invite the kids, and it all worked out in the end. But, since she did assume her kids were invited, it might be a nice gesture to do someting kid friendly once in a while with them, if you want to. But, it is ignorant to assume your kids are welcome everywhere and that everyone's home is equiped and ready to handle children.

pollyjean23 · Marc Jacobs

D, I think you were in the right on this one. We make it very clear as to when kids are invited to anything my husband and I put on. Whenever we invite our friends for an adult-only thing, we usually don't have to specify. But, because we're one of maybe two (or zero, it seems) couples without children, our friends-with-kids usually expect that we offer an adult-only party/dinner.

It's annoying that--to ensure you don't have kids show up at your Passion Party--you have to state explicitly, "No kids!." I really do not like it when people always assume that their kids are invited to things (talking about any event, not just mine).

(This is my own problem), but I feel like a total troll whenever I have to clarify or state that an invitation is not for kids.

Hermes

pollyjean23 wrote:
(This is my own problem), but I feel like a total troll whenever I have to clarify or state that an invitation is not for kids.

EXACTLY. It seems to imply you don't like [their] kids.

Kelly · Hermes

I would never assume an invite was extended to kids if it wasn't actually said. I'd understand asking whether or not the kids were invited if you had asked them to do something casual and possibly kid-friendly (like a walk in the park or a backyard BBQ), but even then I'd expect that someone would do just that - *ask* instead of just assuming.

But then, I don't have kids and most of my friends don't. If we want our friends to bring their kids, we have to actually specify that ("why don't you and Johnny come over for burgers?") or else no kids show up. I wonder if you have kids and most of your friends do, after a while you get so used to all hanging out as families that you just assume kids are invited unless someone says otherwise. (Not that I think it's OK ettiquette-wise to bring your kids along without asking, but I could see how if it's the norm, it wouldn't even occur to anyone to think otherwise if that's what they're used to.)

Yana · Dooney & Bourke

I have 2 kids and consider evening invitations as adult events only. Unless it's family, so, should be discussed (ants/ grandparents usually don't mind the chaos and see that as indeering and also, that they help the parents by lettin them "rest" for a bit).

Afternoon usually presumes with the kids, but as I see it - if there are kids in the household of the host. If a couple doesn't have kids, I think it was a bit presumtuous of your friend to think that her children were invited. So, don't feel bad. Really, don't be afraid to let people know.

Metric · Gucci

I struggle with this a lot as well. My BFF brings her 2 children to (in my eyes) inappropriate-for-children gatherings then is frustrated with me that I don't provide adequate child-friendly entertainment.

Example, every year we have a HUGE New Years party- kegs, dj, the whole shebang packed into my little house. BFF doesn't understand why I don't want 2 kids under foot while my friends get smashed. She figures they should be able to stay and go down in my guest room. This is a huge bone of contention between us and she's pretty much my only friend that does this.

Plus as her kids get older- they are 10 and 8- they know what's going on. Auntie Metric is drunk... lol. I personally don't think they need to see that but maybe that's an extreme example.

I know it probably sucks and is expensive to have to getting babysitters and all that, but that is a choice you make when you have kids. I struggle with trying not to be bitchy about it but it annoys me when I'm kind of made to feel guilty in these situations. I always feel like I'm the bad guy.

Yana · Dooney & Bourke

Don't feel bad. I have kids & when I invite people over, I usully invite for the hour and state that it's for us adults only, as it to give us chance to relax & chat & enjoy ourselves in peace & quiet....I think brining kids over to other people without an invite or clarification that it's OK - is rude. The fact that your BFF brings the kids to the clearly inapropriate for any kids place - should be her problem, not yours. I think you can even make clear to her, that you feel uncomfortable in front of ther children: can't relax, have a drink, worry to seem inappropriate... also, fell uncomfortable for the rest of your guests who come withouht children, who also feel uncomfortalbe in fron of the children. Let her feel guity.

Suasoria · Chanel

I'm sure I'm going to sound like a bitch who doesn't understand what life with kids is like...and that's basically true...but.

D, you did nothing wrong, and I agree with Boots that you both handled it fine - hopefully, no harm no foul. I think it would be lovely of you to say, "I felt bad that I didn't think to make my dinner party more kid-friendly; can we go to the museum, all of us, and then have some sandwiches in the backyard while the weather is still nice?"

Some of these other stories make me cringe. As a childless person, I'm with Yana that an evening/cocktail event should be kid-free...but then there's poor drunk Auntie Metric's BFF who is obviously clueless.

If the invitation doesn't say "and family," or if there's any confusion at all, I believe it's the responsibility of the parents to clarify whether the kids would be welcome or not. Parents have to take initiative on these things because they're the ones with limitations and obligations. It's silly to expect that the world will accommodate their needs, or assume non-parents (and people whose kids are grown and gone, like grandparents) will go with their flow. It's also the parent's right to set the ground rules, and if that means "we don't come unless our kids are included," that's OK: don't come.

Having said all that, I'm sensitive to how expensive and nervewracking it can be to find a good sitter if you want to socialize. That's one of those issues people do need to think about (hopefully before it's too late and they already have kids) - and I have friends who just won't leave their kids with sitters until the kids are already asleep in bed. I also have "friends" who are parents whom I don't really socialize with at all, because it's too complicated for them to do things without the kids, or it's too annoying for me that every opportunity to get together has to revolve around the children. If this turns out to be a friendship worth maintaining, between the two of you, you'll figure out how to make it work.

Yana · Dooney & Bourke

I agree with everything, Suasoria. & I have kids: every invite: I, as a parent, verify - kids/no kids. I myself prefer no kids when invited & when I invte - 'cause i'm just EXHAUSTED & i prefer to pay the sitter & get out of the house...we don't have granparents who help. So, no offense there. Even more so - when we're all a complany with kids: I myself am annoyed that it revolves around the kids, yelling, "parenting", noise, etc...nobody can relax or carry a conversation...Je-eeez...I just vented..sorry...very tired...but Suasoria is right...

Hermes

Thank you, everyone, for weighing in.

We had a wonderful little dinner party, just the four of us, and they said on more than one occasion it was nice to have a break from the kids.

I also suggested that we plan on them bringing the kids over in the fall, take the kids to the science museum across the street, and have a kid friendly dinner followed by roasting marshmallows outside at the fire pit, and they really liked that idea

atlgirl · Gucci

We are one of the few couples in our circle of friends who do not have children. Fortunately when we invite people over, our friends understand that it is not a kid-friendly event. They either choose to get a sitter (or want to pay for one ) or they cannot...if they can't make it work out at a certain time, no bad feelings - we just plan something later for another time. We try to be understanding of our friends' needs (regarding their kids) and they don't try to include their children in everything they do. In fact, some of our friends said they prefer that we keep our parties to "non-kid" invites because they'd rather pay a sitter and have a fun night instead of figuring out what to do with their kids at our (non-child-ready) home.

gossipgirl · Dooney & Bourke

I think etiquette can be a lost art these days in general. I don't have kids, but find our friends with kids tend to assume the invitation is for the whole family. I try to tactfully work into the invite that it's an adult event if that is my purpose- ie: "I'd love to have you both over next Friday - do you think that you'd be able to get a sitter?"

Totally depends on how well you know the people, of course

Having said that - having a room the kid can hang out in with a movie, computer, or random toys, depending on age, can sometimes keep the kid content and you can still enjoy a fairly adult night.

Hermes

I like that invitation suggestion, gossipgirl.

As for setting up a room for kids, um, unless they like antiques and books, my house would be a bore... I also don't want kids on my computer or messing with my tv unsupervised...

When I have them over, we'll plan on engaging them in all the activities anyway. I'm actually looking forward to an autumn evening around the fire with blankets, marshmallows and maybe ghost stories!

greendiamond · Marc Jacobs

A trip to the local cider mill is usually fun for kids and would pair nicely with the fall activities you have planned.

Also, if you have any lawn games, that can be a good way to occupy some kids without them playing in your house. It is fun to play with them, but I was amazed to watch my then-three-year-old nephew invent a game out of my bocce ball set.

My home gets more kid friendly every year but it still isn't a place for kids. Before my nephew came along it was 100% unfriendly for kids only I didn't realize it. We had a party in which families were invited (a big ol indoor-outdoor bash, so I wasn't always inside) and I entered my family room to see my friend dashing about to put up some crystal bowls and such. It hadn't occured to me that as her son was pulling himself up on the ledge, that he could pull it down on himself.

blink · Coach

My Emily Post Etiquette book says "when an invitation does not explicitly mention children, then children are not expected." I agree with this for the most part, but there are exceptions when the friendship is more intimate and when the friends are mutual parents.

That said, as the mother of two young and active (yeah, misbehaving) boys, I find much of Emily Post's advice about children utterly laughable. But that's another post.

I am divorced and I have primary custody of my children. This means I have them most of the time, but roughly every other weekend I am kids-free. If I'm invited to anything by a close friend, she probably already knows my free weekends, or she's asked when I am free, far ahead of time. If I am invited by a friend who is not so close, I will attend if the date falls during a time I don't have my sons, or if it falls on a date when I am scheduled to be with my sons, I will politely decline and suggest we reschedule time to spend together. Unless it's a birthday or special occasion, it's unlikely I am going to hire a babysitter.

The reason I think that D's invitation doesn't quite fall into the Emily Post guideline is because it seemed to be a casual and intimate invitation to a close friend and her husband... but other singles or couples weren't invited, so it was for them specifically (correct me if I misunderstood). So, if I were D's friend, while not required, and NOT expected, she might not tell you this, but might think it would have been nice to have the child acknowledged in the invitation. It's really kind, and a loving gesture, when friends invite your children. It makes me feel endeared. I am not saying this as any sort of criticism to those who don't like to invite their friends children, if you don't want to do this, I won't try to convince you, and Emily Post is on your side. Nor would I think less of such a friend. But as a mother, I am telling you that it means A LOT when a friend, especially one who is not a parent, welcomes children and when it's known that spending time with this person for dinner doesn't necessitate the hiring of a babysitter. And naturally, I spend more time and share more of my life with those who welcome my children. My best local friend is a lovely, socially active, single girl in her late 20's... and unless it's a late evening kind of event with numerous people, she always welcomes my sons in her home. Her dogs are kid friendly, and my sons play with them. However, when this friend has adults over for cheese and wine, the dogs are sometimes placed in their crates so that no one trips over them.

However, an invite of this nature from a friend who IS a parent is regarded differently. Typically, if a couple who are also parents were to invite me to dinner, it includes the kids. By this point in the relationship, we've probably all met each others children, and nobody needs to clarify that kids are explicitly invited, they just are... because we're all in the same boat. The only time we hang out without kids is when someone explicitly says, no kids. Such as, "let's have an adult night or a double date night" or something similar. Parents who spend lots of time lots of time with other parents often operate exactly opposite of the Emily Post guideline. Kids are expected to attend unless explicitly stated otherwise. Though obviously, the annual cocktail Christmas party, or a dinner at a more formal restaurant, anything late evening, etc... Some things are just understood. And sometimes there are exceptions to those rules too! Example: The Annual [Smith] Christmas Party; One year or two seemed to be the year everyone was having babies, and the hostess set aside old bassinets in a spare bedroom so that those with babies could attend the party, have a place to put their children to bed, and not need to leave early and miss the fun.

This is a long way of explaining that while you are safe, etiquette wise, in not explicitly inviting children and most parents with manners understand that children aren't welcome, you should all understand that your friends might love you that much more if you do welcome their children.

:)

P.S. D, I think it's really sweet that you want to plan a kids day. That probably means a lot to your friend and to her child as well.

Because you said you don't have a kid-friendly house, an alternative there would be to invite the children with the intention that you would put away some of the breakables, put the dogs in crates, and suggest they bring some of their stuff, like a board game, a DVD (you provide popcorn), a video game system or something in which they can avoid boredom, so that the adults can converse.