STYLETHREAD -- LET'S TALK SHOP!

laken1 · Hermes

Non-christian / religious members - thoughts?

blubirde · Chanel

I don't believe in the Christian god but I do believe we are part of nature and there is a certain balance that connects us all with the world we live in. Philosophically this is considered spirituality but I really don't consider myself spiritual.

Do I think the tsunami and Katrina and all the increasingly bad things Mother Nature is throwing at us are connected? Yes. I believe it's caused by humans' abuse of nature and taking the very ground we walk on for granted.

I, too, have mentioned and heard mention of the "apocalypse" and I think with what happened in New Orleans, that word is bound to come up. Do I honestly think Jesus will shortly be visiting us? No. But I think these storms and natural disasters could be a sign of something bigger and a coming change in our environment that we might not be able to prepare for, no matter how on the ball FEMA is (ha! I laugh at the thought). It really has nothing to do with religion for me.

I have no idea how this world will end or if it even will. If I had to guess, I'd imagine another ice age or an asteroid hitting the earth or something like that. I don't particularly care to dwell on it so I haven't given it much thought. I hope by that time, we'll have figured out how to live on other planets and hopefully learned from our mistakes. I feel weird even saying that!

Good post - I'm interested to see what everyone else says.

kenzie · Chanel

I agree, this is a good post. I can't answer your question laken1 b/c I am of the Christian school of thought. But I am curious as to other posters' thoughts on this.

-- Edited by NylaBelle at 14:12, 2005-09-12

dc · Dooney & Bourke

What a thoughtful and interesting question.

I pretty much agree with what blubirde said (as I so often do these days!). I do think that things seem to be getting worse, and I am a believer in climate change/global warming and the negative impact that human dominance has had on our natural environment. Whatever happens in that sense, we have wrought. I don't think that this is a comeuppance being visited upon us by any God or force or anything like that, but merely because comeuppances simply happen once a chain of events is set in motion unless steps are taken... and I really don't think there's much we can do to stop it. Well, there is much we can do, but we WON'T do enough. Sadly, I am a cynic on this point. Humans will talk a good talk about the environment, but the almighty buck will always win out. And what we have in place now is a regime deep in the pockets of an industry (oil) out of control. Frankly, the lobby is overwhelming and RICH, and so many of those in power right now are completely beholden to those interests (look at DeLay's latest proposal). So my belief is not that the earth will give us what for, or that the gods will (because obviously I don't believe in any sort of God or power), but that we will do it ourselves and we need to face that and take responsibility for it. I don't want to disrespect people who do believe in the end of days or what have you, but one can't turn a blind eye to man-made problems or call it God.

All that said, there have been natural catastrophes for millennia and there will continue to be after we are gone - I don't see it as anything apocalyptic just yet, and obviously weather happens no matter what we do. But I do believe that our actions have contributed to factors which make the consequences of severe weather and even the weather itself far more dire. Also, we can't allow our society to continue in the direction it is with oil - our dependence upon it could cripple our economy & industry as supplies grow more scarce & pricey (look at how people are freaking about gas prices now - it will only get worse), not to mention the environmental effects already discussed, and of course the geopolitical implications which lead us to war.

If there is a sudden end to things, it'll be nuclear, which is obviously our (humans') fault - and possibly tied to our dependence on foreign oil - or possibly an asteroid or some other function of the universe, which, while out of our control, is completely within the realm of science and not anything I'd attribute to a deity. Things happen - too bad. We're not the first species to dominate the earth and we won't be the last, but we might be the first to hasten our own end.

-- Edited by dc at 14:41, 2005-09-12

dewdk · BCBG

i love this question. i need time to think about a response since i really have never thought about this type of question in this type of way. just wanted to say i will reply and so far dc adn blue have been eloquent and spot on as usual.

Maddie · Coach

I'm totally non religious and the idea that recent natural disasters are a harbinger of an apocalypse didn't even occur to me until someone else mentioned it. I still don't believe it at all.

I think the explanation lies partly in the idea that humans are now reaping what we have sowed. There is compelling evidence that the increase in the temperature of the world is linked to human abuse, and as waters warm, tropical storms will occur more frequently. It's certainly possible that Katrina and Talim were results of this. Yet, although Talim was tragic, my understanding is that it wasn't as extraordinary as Katrina.

I also think it's partly coincidence. Tsunamis are caused by earthquakes, which, as far as I know, are thus far pretty much unrelated to human activity. The argument could be made that if more coral reefs were intact, the land would have been more protected, but regardless it would still have been devastating.

So while it's certainly possible that humans have played a large part in recent natural disasters, I don't think that is the only cause. Sometimes things just happen. Although if we do not start changing our behavior the situation will only worsen.

poptart · Coach

Maddie wrote:

I'm totally non religious and the idea that recent natural disasters are a harbinger of an apocalypse didn't even occur to me until someone else mentioned it. I still don't believe it at all. I think the explanation lies partly in the idea that humans are now reaping what we have sowed. There is compelling evidence that the increase in the temperature of the world is linked to human abuse, and as waters warm, tropical storms will occur more frequently. It's certainly possible that Katrina and Talim were results of this. Yet, although Talim was tragic, my understanding is that it wasn't as extraordinary as Katrina. I also think it's partly coincidence. Tsunamis are caused by earthquakes, which, as far as I know, are thus far pretty much unrelated to human activity. The argument could be made that if more coral reefs were intact, the land would have been more protected, but regardless it would still have been devastating. So while it's certainly possible that humans have played a large part in recent natural disasters, I don't think that is the only cause. Sometimes things just happen. Although if we do not start changing our behavior the situation will only worsen.

This perfectly summarizes my opinions about the whole thing. (I am Christian.)

sephorablue · Marc Jacobs

OOh, this is a great topic, thanks laken!

I do not think this is the beginning of the apocalypse, because I don't believe in the concept. Natural disasters have destroyed people for as long as there have been people. Even before that! Look at the dinosaurs! (Eddie Izzard has this great bit about how the dinosaurs were God's first try at life, they were given the shape of his ugly cousin Sid, and they were unsuccessful so he destroyed them... but I digress...).

At one period during the Middle Ages, plague killed something like a third of the population of Europe. That is a different kind of natural disaster, but far more deadly than anything we are thinking about with regards to this thread. And although many people must have thought so at the time, the plague was not in fact a sign of the approaching apocalypse.

And while I definitely think that we have wrought incredible destruction upon the earth, I really don't think that these recent events were caused by that, although I agree with what everyone has said about global warming fueling hurricanes. The reason things like the tsunami, and the hurricanes/cyclones, have the opportunity to be so deadly is because population has exploded so immensely, ESPECIALLY, in the case of Katrina, along the US Gulf Coast. New Orleans was only able to grow at the pace it did, and become the city it has, because of all the technological developments we have witnessed in the last two centuries. But efforts to secure and defend the city have NOT kept pace with its growth, as we have all heard about in great detail--the category three levees, the sinking earth no longer rebuilt by the Mississippi's sediment, the slashed funding for army corps of engineers, the dredging of Pontchartrain marshes to build on, etc. And growth and development all along the hurricane belt has absolutely exploded, which means the amount of people, buildings, boats, etc. for hurricanes to wreck has been multiplying exponentially. So the storms don't have to be any more powerful to do increasing amounts of damage, simply because there is increasingly more stuff in their way. And as population continues to explode, there are increasingly more people to be harmed.

So no, I don't think these things are a sign of the end of days, and I don't think they represent any kind of backlash/balancing act on the part of nature. I would say that the events themselves were not caused by people, but the increasing presence and settlement of people in disaster-prone areas turn each natural event into a bigger disaster.

On the topic of nature's balancing, though, I have heard people say that disease is the best example of that. We have gotten so good at managing and defeating it that our population HAS exploded, but the emergence of new diseases and the continual mutation of existing diseases to resist our drugs is very interesting. I don't know anything about it though, so I have no idea if there is any evidence to support that line of thought.

Andrea Julia · Coach

Warning: I am going to be completely candid here. I hope nobody is offended by this:

I would classify myself as agnostic. More specifically, I believe that nobody on this earth has any clue where we came from or where we are going. There is no concrete evidence. Sure, there is the Bible, Torah, Koran, whatever, but these things have been passed down for thousands of years. Some of the stories in these books took place before there was written language so they were passed from person to person for a long time before they were even written down. It makes me think of that game "telephone" that girls used to play at sleepovers. Things have changed so much in religion even in my lifetime that it makes me think how many times things have been changed around in the past 1000 years. And it is alwyas people making the changes, not a higher power. Religions that denounced birth control or homosexuality have changed to fit the times. Did God ever explicitly say that now people can use birth control and be gay? Did he ever say that people couldn't do these things in the first place?

I really think that what will happen to us after we die is something that we couldn't even imagine; something that nobody has ever once thought of; something that we wouldn't even be able to put into words. How could anything we think of be what really happens? Nobody has seen it. Nobody has experienced it and came back to describe it. I find it equally believable that there is life after death, reincarnation, or you just simply rot in the ground and no longer think or feel anything. It still sounds crazy to me that you could just never have another thought again. I can't even imagine that. I see that as a possibility, but I just don't think my mind (or anyone's mind) can comprehend what happens after death. It is something that terrifies me. Every once in a while I will end up in a panic because I know one day I will die and I have no way of knowing what will happen or how to prepare for it.

I used to be Catholic. My immediate family didn't go to church, but my grandmother did (still does). In middle school, I went through a period where I became especially religious, even choosing to join church groups and to go to church with my grandma on Sunday. I was extremely dedicated. However, one day, I was sitting in church group and we were singing and all of a sudden, my faith was gone. I saw the songs as silly. I started thinking the people were weird and not very smart. I started having questions that my church group leaders couldn't answer. I just stopped believing that all the stuff I had been learning was right.

The only thing that has really stuck with me from my Catholic days is a fear of apocalypse. I may have been the one that brought it up in another thread. I have always been deathly afraid of the Christian version of the apocalypse. So horrid. Even if I believe in nothing else, it still is always in the back of my mind that there is at least a chance of this happening. One of the worst things I have ever done to myself in my lifetime is read Revelations. I honestly couldn't sleep with the lights off for over a year and seriously felt like there was evilness around (I probably should have sought counseling). I am much better now, but I still always fear that it is coming or that we are in the beginning stages of it (and there are plenty of websites that will feed into this fear if you do a search). I am able to calm my fears by remembering that there have been countless times in the history of man that people thought must be the apocalypse, but it wasn't.

However, I do think that EVENTUALLY, what we have here will come to an end and there may or may not be a new beginning. And I think that the events of recent (tsunami, Katrina) are feeding into this end. It could be a higher power, it could be the ozone, but if it is the ozone, it still leaves the question of why/how the ozone exists? So, in short, I don't know, and I don't believe that other people (scientists or religious worshippers) really know for sure.

-- Edited by Andrea Julia at 20:57, 2005-09-12

honey · Gucci

i agree somewhat w/ aj. i think ultimately there will be an end to humankind b/c i think all species become extinct. not to be all gloom and doom, but i think it's part of the cyclical nature of life. though i highly doubt the end will come in our lifetime.

that being said i am religous (though i hate that term i like believer). anyway i grew up in a very religous household and went to one of those fire & brimstone churches where you could count on hearing a sermon about the apocalypse at least once a month. the thing is as aj pointed out a lot of the stories you hear have been passed down from generation to generation for thousand of years. if you read revelations (and/or daniel) you'll see that it's all metaphors. even if you're not religious and believe in angels, etc. revelations goes beyond that and discusses the beast and the woman and a bunch of other stuff that's not necessarily to be taken literally (i personally don't believe it should be). the point is most of it is subject to interpretation, and the "signs" could be interpreted in so many ways. so i don't think that what's currently happening now is reflective of an end of days, more or less it's just one person's interpretation of what's happening in an effort to understand a crazy world.

also my basic (and somewhat limited understanding) is that people have been talking about the end of days, since the dawn of time. the only thing that makes it different is that technology has advanced so much that now we know about everything that's happening in the world around us instantaneously, whereas before we only knew about it after the fact or were limited to knowing about it after the fact. for example 20 years ago we would have heard about the tsunami after the fact, and probably have had a limited understanding of the scope of the tragedy. but technology has changed so much that not only did we know while it was happening but also understand its catastrophic nature instantaneously which totally transforms our understanding of it. allowing people to make x, y comparisons along the lines of all this crazy stuff is happening so it must be the end times.

sephorablue · Marc Jacobs

honey wrote:

also my basic (and somewhat limited understanding) is that people have been talking about the end of days, since the dawn of time. the only thing that makes it different is that technology has advanced so much that now we know about everything that's happening in the world around us instantaneously, whereas before we only knew about it after the fact or were limited to knowing about it after the fact. for example 20 years ago we would have heard about the tsunami after the fact, and probably have had a limited understanding of the scope of the tragedy. but technology has changed so much that not only did we know while it was happening but also understand its catastrophic nature instantaneously which totally transforms our understanding of it. allowing people to make x, y comparisons along the lines of all this crazy stuff is happening so it must be the end times.

ooooh, good point.

cc · Marc Jacobs

I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school for 12 years, however I don't ever remember being taught about the apocalypse in any serious literal way. We did study Revelations in high school but were never told that it was something that would happen as it is spelled out in the Bible, if at all. So even though I have followed/believed in many Catholic teachings that wasn't one of them.

Like a number of people who have already posted I agree that natural disasters have happened since before human history and scientists have enough evidence about the earth's history to show that there have been extreme weather cycles in the past.
However I do think that humans have been mistreating the environment and that much of this abuse could be making the effects of natural disasters worse. For example, people (including the former head of the EPA) have said that the building of casinos in the Gulf coast wetlands was a dangerous move because development prevents the wetlands from absorbing the brunt of the storms and it can no longer act as a buffer between the ocean and the mainland.

I think the same thinking can apply to things like mad cow disease. In a way I think humans were asking for it it (not each individual person who got the disease obviously! It sounds like such a horrible illness; I would never wish it on anyone) by horribly messing with nature. Feeding cows, who are herbivores, cows and other animals just seems like such a wrong thing to do, no matter how much better the meat tastes to those who eat it. So while I am not anti-science and don't oppose most technological advances I do think people should understand and be prepared for the fact that there could be consequences down the road.

kenzie · Chanel

honey wrote:

i agree somewhat w/ aj. i think ultimately there will be an end to humankind b/c i think all species become extinct. not to be all gloom and doom, but i think it's part of the cyclical nature of life. though i highly doubt the end will come in our lifetime. that being said i am religous (though i hate that term i like believer). anyway i grew up in a very religous household and went to one of those fire & brimstone churches where you could count on hearing a sermon about the apocalypse at least once a month. the thing is as aj pointed out a lot of the stories you hear have been passed down from generation to generation for thousand of years. if you read revelations (and/or daniel) you'll see that it's all metaphors. even if you're not religious and believe in angels, etc. revelations goes beyond that and discusses the beast and the woman and a bunch of other stuff that's not necessarily to be taken literally (i personally don't believe it should be). the point is most of it is subject to interpretation, and the "signs" could be interpreted in so many ways. so i don't think that what's currently happening now is reflective of an end of days, more or less it's just one person's interpretation of what's happening in an effort to understand a crazy world. also my basic (and somewhat limited understanding) is that people have been talking about the end of days, since the dawn of time. the only thing that makes it different is that technology has advanced so much that now we know about everything that's happening in the world around us instantaneously, whereas before we only knew about it after the fact or were limited to knowing about it after the fact. for example 20 years ago we would have heard about the tsunami after the fact, and probably have had a limited understanding of the scope of the tragedy. but technology has changed so much that not only did we know while it was happening but also understand its catastrophic nature instantaneously which totally transforms our understanding of it. allowing people to make x, y comparisons along the lines of all this crazy stuff is happening so it must be the end times.

Well said, honey. And aj, I tortured myself with 'Revelations' as well. It went so far as my church youth group watching this terrifying movies series (I believe it was a trilogy) about it--'A Thief in the Night' was one of them, I think. I can't remember. I'll run a search and add them if I think of/find them. We also had an entire summer where we focused specifically on Revelations in my youth group. Talk about getting freaked out!

I agree that society has been talking about the so-called 'end of days' for a long time. It's not just natural disasters that spur this kind of talk in Christian circles. It's also the so-called 'increasing immorality' and references to Sodom and Gamorrah (spelling, sorry) from The Bible--two cities which God destroyed with fire and brimstone b/c of their immorality, etc.

I do believe that there will be an end of days and an apocalypse of sorts. Do I know exactly what it is? Of course not, I couldn't even speculate even after reading Revelations and growing up going to church every Sunday morning and Wednesday night. I do know that according to some religious scholar's research that there is no mention of anything in the Western World (aka, the US) in Revelations in regard to the end of days. So the assumption could be made that the US as it is will cease to exist, or at least lose it's power. Revelations focuses on the Middle Eastern part of the world.

Oh my, this is bringing back all sorts of memories of my church youth group days.

poptart · Coach

NylaBelle wrote:

It went so far as my church youth group watching this terrifying movies series (I believe it was a trilogy) about it--'A Thief in the Night' was one of them, I think.

OMG. Those of us subjected to those movies (the second two are "Image of the Beast" and "A Distant Thunder" I think) should all be entitled to free therapy. Terrifying. And sooooo bad (bad acting, bad writing, etc.).

kenzie · Chanel

Lisa wrote:

NylaBelle wrote: It went so far as my church youth group watching this terrifying movies series (I believe it was a trilogy) about it--'A Thief in the Night' was one of them, I think. OMG. Those of us subjected to those movies (the second two are "Image of the Beast" and "A Distant Thunder" I think) should all be entitled to free therapy. Terrifying. And sooooo bad (bad acting, bad writing, etc.).

OMG!! That's it! That's what they were. I know I could have used some therapy after seeing those! And let's not forget the fantabulous 70's wardrobes and hairstyles.

FashionFreak · Kenneth Cole

honey wrote:

also my basic (and somewhat limited understanding) is that people have been talking about the end of days, since the dawn of time. the only thing that makes it different is that technology has advanced so much that now we know about everything that's happening in the world around us instantaneously, whereas before we only knew about it after the fact or were limited to knowing about it after the fact. for example 20 years ago we would have heard about the tsunami after the fact, and probably have had a limited understanding of the scope of the tragedy. but technology has changed so much that not only did we know while it was happening but also understand its catastrophic nature instantaneously which totally transforms our understanding of it. allowing people to make x, y comparisons along the lines of all this crazy stuff is happening so it must be the end times.

That's a very good point. I'm Christian and I have always heard about it in church and from familly members, especially my very religious grandparents about the end of days. I believe that it will come eventually, but the things that are happening now, are not signs of it. These things have always happend and always will. But the end will come somehow, I don't know how though.

-- Edited by FashionFreak at 13:54, 2005-09-13

Claudia · Gucci

Well, I'm christian so my opinion will probably differ from some of yall. I was raised in a christian home and I still go to church on Fridays and Sundays.

I believe there's a higher power, God, and I do believe in the end of times.

Are the current events happening right connected to the end of times? I do believe so. Yes, humans are part of the matter, because of how we've been treating the earth. I also believe that God has his own way of punishing. In God's eye, I think New Orleans was viewed as a really bad city with lots of sin, gambling, Mardi Gras and etc.

I hope that made sense.

edited: to fix sunday

-- Edited by Claudia at 18:23, 2005-09-13

blubirde · Chanel

Claudia wrote:

I also believe that God has his own way of punishing. In God's eye, I think New Orleans was viewed as a really bad city with lots of sin, gambling, Mardi Gras and etc.

Woah - really? Actually you can't gamble in New Orleans. Why not Las Vegas? Prostitution is legal there. For that matter, why not Washington D.C.?

I'm not knocking your point of view, I'm just interested in your rationale.

Claudia · Gucci

Sorry, I overlooked the gambling thing.

I don't have all the answers to every question. I put that as my opinion, what I thought.

Why not anywhere else? I don't have the answer to that question. There's always what if, why not, etc questions.

I'm a firm believer that things happen for a reason. I'm sure there was a reason in why New Orleans was destroyed.

Maybe to make it a better place?

ShanKel · Kenneth Cole

Claudia wrote:

I also believe that God has his own way of punishing. In God's eye, I think New Orleans was viewed as a really bad city with lots of sin, gambling, Mardi Gras and etc. I hope that made sense. edited: to fix sunday-- Edited by Claudia at 18:23, 2005-09-13

Wow Claudia, your post was interesting. I am also a Christian and I just don't believe God works that way. I dont think that he would have made all those people suffer that way but I do believe that he can create good out of something meant for evil. There were many good people in NO as well as the other areas that didnt deserve this and like blubirde said, what went on in NO happens in every other big city in the US. I know this is your opinion, i'm just trying to give you a different way of looking at it.

Great post laken, i've also had questions about this topic. Its interesting to see everyone take on what they think will happen to us when we die. I do believe in the end of times but I think that humans have to hold some accountability for the events that have been happening. I think that we have a responsibility to take care of the world we live in if we want it to take care of us.