STYLETHREAD -- LET'S TALK SHOP!

kenzie · Chanel

need some advice

Hermes

Do you have work you're proud of for your portfolio? Just use that. Don't bring up samples of your work at your current employer. If asked you can say, I can show you, but please understand that my contributions were always submitted to and subsequently altered by a team of engineers, so please keep that in mind when looking at them. Don't act sour about it, but just more matter of fact. That is your role, and you performed within the scope assigned to you.

I find oftentimes when you show a portfolio, very little attention is paid to when you did the work or which employer/client is was you were working under when you produced it. Just show your best stuff.

You're right about not bad-mouthing your employer. What you could say is you enjoy the work you do, but you are seeking a role where you are able to contribute more creatively, influence behavior of your target market, and ultimately increase your employer's/client's revenue and ROI.

kenzie · Chanel

D wrote:

Do you have work you're proud of for your portfolio? Just use that. Don't bring up samples of your work at your current employer. If asked you can say, I can show you, but please understand that my contributions were always submitted to and subsequently altered by a team of engineers, so please keep that in mind when looking at them. Don't act sour about it, but just more matter of fact. That is your role, and you performed within the scope assigned to you.

I find oftentimes when you show a portfolio, very little attention is paid to when you did the work or which employer/client is was you were working under when you produced it. Just show your best stuff.

You're right about not bad-mouthing your employer. What you could say is you enjoy the work you do, but you are seeking a role where you are able to contribute more creatively, influence behavior of your target market, and ultimately increase your employer's/client's revenue and ROI.

I have work that I'm proud of. Honestly, the best work I have is from when I was an intern because it was a really creative job and I had free reign. Sad that that's been the most interesting work of my career thus far, though. I have stuff from my former job, too, where I had more creative control.

I like the way you framed the explanation of why my work might be subpar for my current job.

What about the issue of a potential employer using google and finding work they think is mine, but it's not? How do I nip that one in the bud?

Ugh. I'm so frustrated. I just need some fresh perspective here. This two-year job hunt is wearing on me. We're (fingers crossed) getting ready to move in january-ish (can't give details just yet) and I'd like start networking with my best foot forward.

Hermes

kenzie wrote:

D wrote:

Do you have work you're proud of for your portfolio? Just use that. Don't bring up samples of your work at your current employer. If asked you can say, I can show you, but please understand that my contributions were always submitted to and subsequently altered by a team of engineers, so please keep that in mind when looking at them. Don't act sour about it, but just more matter of fact. That is your role, and you performed within the scope assigned to you.

I find oftentimes when you show a portfolio, very little attention is paid to when you did the work or which employer/client is was you were working under when you produced it. Just show your best stuff.

You're right about not bad-mouthing your employer. What you could say is you enjoy the work you do, but you are seeking a role where you are able to contribute more creatively, influence behavior of your target market, and ultimately increase your employer's/client's revenue and ROI.

What about the issue of a potential employer using google and finding work they think is mine, but it's not? How do I nip that one in the bud?

Do you have the url in your resume? If so, take it out. If someone wants to interview you, they will most likely be interested in you from the content of your resume. If they get to a point where they want to extend an offer, they may go take a look at your current employer's site. By that time they will better understand your role as contributor to a team that altered your work, not as the one responsible for all web content/final product.

Elle · Hermes

Could you create a mock-up of how your company's landing page or key advertisements would look if you had control over them, and add that to your portfolio?

kenzie · Chanel

D, no I don't have the url in my resume.

Elle, I could do that I suppose and it's not something I haven't thought of, but the issue isn't just of the creative stuff looking like crap. It's a complete lack of business goals, marketing objectives and target markets, so really we're just throwing things on the wall and hoping they stick. I'd need more background information to produce effective ads. It would require lots of research. I guess I could always make up the goals, objectives and target markets and create spec ads for that. But I just feel like at my career level, I shouldn't have spec ads anymore. It might be frowned upon at this point since I'm not just out of college. I could be wrong about that, though.

I'm actually working on a mock-up right now of our content strategy for our ideal landing page. I'm taking past projects and using those as the basis, but making up the goals, etc. to create a (hopefully) effective campaign. That's an actual project I have open at my job right now. That one we might be able to use.

Kelly · Hermes

I have no real advice except to say that I could have written this post myself. So I'm glad you posted it - I'm sopping up all the advice and info too. It's almost eerie how much my situation is mirrored in what you wrote!

-- Edited by Kelly on Tuesday 14th of September 2010 11:40:35 AM

kenzie · Chanel

Hey Kelly, good to know I'm not the only one who feels this way. I was starting to feel lonely.

I don't know whether that's encouraging or discouraging, though, because it tells me there are more companies out there like mine.

Here's hoping it gets better for both of us soon, then.

Does anyone have any thoughts about the grad school thing and whether or not I should keep it on my resume right now? It's sort of related in that it's marketing and business, but let's be honest here, no one who wants to be a copywriter (or a creative director, project manager or marketing communications manager) for the duration of their career is going to pursue an MFA in merchandising. I don't want to appear wishy-washy or make an employer feel like I'm going to skip out on them as soon as I graduate.

-- Edited by kenzie on Tuesday 14th of September 2010 12:21:29 PM

greendiamond · Marc Jacobs

Would it be possible to show all the work you've done and are proud of, and then have a piece or two that you 'mark up' with what you would have done differently had you ahd complete creative control?

alb · Marc Jacobs

kenzie wrote:

ETA: On a semi-related note, do you think I should just leave my MFA-in progress off of my resume for right now, unless I'm applying to jobs that actually relate to it? I've read some advice recently about leaving irrelevant degrees and jobs off your resume since it's technically a marketing document, but obviously once you fill out an application, you can't leave it off since that's a legal document.

But I've decided that for now, I'm going to stay on the career path I'm on and hopefully make it to a copy director or creative director position while I finish school and save money to move into merchandising. Thoughts on just leaving it off? I think it's another thing that might be hurting me.

-- Edited by kenzie on Tuesday 14th of September 2010 09:58:54 AM

I would definitely leave that off, especially if it you suspect it may be hurting you. If it's not relevant it does not need to be on your resume. You can always mention it later if you are asked and by all means don't lie about it on any official documents, but I think if marketing/copywriting is your aim your resume should reflect that.

Hermes

In my opinion, I think you should leave the MFA on. Undergraduate degrees are a dime a dozen, and many employers are stating that a graduate degree is preferred. How is an MFA not relevant to a creative director position? Regardless, any masters is a plus. If you received an associates degree in nursing or something, I could see where that wouldn't be relevant.

As for your job search taking a long time -- everyone I know that is unemployed in the creative field is having a tough time finding a job. These are people with tons of high-profile experience too -- there's a lot of stiff competition out there.

I'm also wondering how you're positioning your approach. Are you making it clear that you endeavor to make your prospective employer succeed and how you will make that happen? I'm sure you already know that it's all about them, and not about you (any employer.) Just sharing thoughts off the top of my head...

kenzie · Chanel

greendiamond, yes I could do that, but it's still time consuming (see my response to Elle's post).

alb and D, about the MFA. It's not an MFA in advertising. Honestly, the whole program is sort of a hybrid MFA/MBA since I've taken product design, development and sourcing classes (focusing on fashion-related products) as well as business classes, like marketing and promotions, e-commerce and creating competitive strategy (and I will be taking financial planning, business management and market research).

In those classes, I've created products, designed brand and product launch strategies, and business and marketing plans, as well as created advertising campaigns. I suppose I can spin it (and I've tried) to be relevant to being a creative director, but I think people are just seeing "Merchandising (fashion)" and not seeing the classes I list or clicking the links to relevant projects. I'm actually working on creating a website for myself and I have a whole page dedicated to explaining my grad school program, what it actually is and a few project samples, because people are pretty confused. For some reason, they think it's fashion design and it's not at all. Plus it's great that I have project examples from class, but most employers expect real-world examples, which obviously as already stated, I'm having a bit of an issue with right now.

And about how I'm positioning myself- I definitely make it about the employers and what I'll do for them. I'll even go as far as to list a specific need they have listed in the job listed and describe exactly how I can fill it and give examples of how I did in in the past for someone else.

I have revised and revised and revised my resume and cover letter. The big issue I think is that there are only a few jobs in my area (for a while there were none at all), so they are completely flooded with applicants when one comes up. Getting seen is nearly impossible. And I'm in the wrong zip code for jobs I apply for that are outside of my local area (all I get is, "let us know when you live here" but sorry, I can't really move without a job).

I think another problem is that I've revised my resume so much and I've been beaten down so much by my current employer that it's hard for me to feel like I've even accomplished anything at all. And that makes it hard to write a resume that's worth the paper it's printed on, you know?

-- Edited by kenzie on Tuesday 14th of September 2010 02:42:50 PM

Hermes

I would take the MFA concentration of merchandising out. Just say you're getting your MFA. I have a BFA and I've totally spun that as an asset. I am able to say that I have an understanding of both the business and creative side, and that allows me to better communicate client needs to creative as well as manage client expectations at the concept level. Having an art degree in marketing/advertising, especially if you're in account management or corporate marketing is a huge and unique asset. I know it's set me apart in a positive way when I've interviewed. My BFA is in industrial design. If asked about how that would contribute to the job, I've always responded that I was trained to approach solutions objectively -- to approach a problem without pre-conceived ideas and arrive at a solution that is truly unique. This way of thinking can be applied to any business. I think that's the kind spin you might need to find.

XtinaStyles · Marc Jacobs

kenzie, is there a way, perhaps on your cover letter or in your resume that you can emphasize "worked with a team of copywriters" or implicate that you are not solely responsible for the copy?

I work in marketing for an internet publishing company. We have one single copywriter but most of the writing is not her creative project and goes through 50 other people. There are also a ton of politics regarding our out-of-date layouts and stodgy formatting. There's often a push-pull between the copywriter and other influences who think they know marketing better than the marketers including bad spam-ridden email subjects, cheesy puns, etc.

In addition to the portfolio, perhaps you can create a website-portfolio and put that on top of your resume to emphasize the work you were responsible for and were proud of.

In terms if the MFA, I would DEF put it on your resume, but cleverly word it like "Masters Coursework at New York University, 2009-2010" or even persuing MFA in Marketing and Business Merchandising (which is actually the truth). Masters=respect and $$$ even if it is in something entirely unrelated.

-- Edited by XtinaStyles on Tuesday 14th of September 2010 11:42:06 PM

Suasoria · Chanel

Perhaps part of the problem with the MFA is that it's still in progress. Employers could be concerned that you will need to take time off to complete it, that you aren't 100% invested in the job they're offering, and/or once it's completed you'll disappear for a higher-level opportunity.

kenzie · Chanel

@Xtina, I usually word it like "worked with creative team and product managers" or something like that. There are no other copywriters and I don't want to take away from the fact that, in reality, I've done a ton of work to get this company properly branded and to give it a voice, consistency and some really creative ideas. I created the first copy style guide to go with our corporate standards for design, which people outside of my department choose to ignore because they don't think copy matters or that I could even possibly know what I'm talking about, but still, it exists (well, almost, it's in the final approval stages).

I also don't want to take away from the fact that I've stepped into the role of info architect/content strategist, too, but when it comes to the web my problem is that things get changed without my knowledge (my multiple bosses are working to correct this issue). I really would like to use the SEO and content strategy stuff I've done because when I do SEO here, we go straight to the top of the search rankings. But I can't exactly give a url to a page that's been messed with and has grammar and consistency problems, you know? I guess I could just give them the copy deck with the original copy and say the page may have been updated since my original copy was added?

And I like what you (and D) mentioned about the MFA. I do think I can spin the merchandising degree to relate. I think I just need to remove the "fashion" part completely. I actually have some pretty good ad campaigns and other marketing-related portfolio pieces from my classes that I think are worth using in my portfolio (like SEO plans and info architecture/content strategy stuff for e-commerce).

Plus, I have a 3.7 GPA, all while taking 9 credits a semester and working full-time. I think that's a pretty big accomplishment in and of itself, and worth noting on a resume.

@Suasoria, I never thought that employers may be concerned about taking time off to complete it, so maybe that is a problem. Maybe if I mention (as I already do), the GPA thing in the previous paragraph and say that I have no intentions of taking time off to finish or something like that, I can alleviate that concern.

I'm not sure how to get around the other issue of them thinking I'll leave upon completion of the degree, because it may or may not be true. It all depends on where we're living at the time, if there's room for advancement where I currently have a job, of if I can even find another job worth pursuing. Any ideas how to get around that fear?

Clearly, I need to tear apart my entire resume and start over here. It's helpful to have fresh viewpoints.

On a side note, Xtina, we have the same issue here with politics, stodgy formatting and out-dated websites. We have the push-pull situation here, too. But I'm not just a copywriter. I'm also supposed to be working on the creative concepts and the overall vision, so I have a little more say than other copywiters might. Projects come to me first and I'm supposed to (and I do) work with the product managers to get all of the information and to guide the direction of the projects. It still is a battle, though, and I've seen the attempts at spammy headlines and cheesy puns here, too. And then there's the other issue of them just backdooring around me and some projects that I just never see at all. Good times.

-- Edited by kenzie on Wednesday 15th of September 2010 08:06:23 AM

Hermes

When I decided to pursue my MBA, my employer at the time was not happy. They said I didn't need it for the job I was doing (writing GM Van online order guides.) They knew I was not dedicating my life to the order guide writing, and they wanted a drone that would stay for all eternity and never endeavor to accomplish more.

I like xtina's suggestion of "Masters Coursework" or something like that. This may just be me, but I think detailing your gpa sounds a bit entry level. I also think if your gpa is high, the prospective employer might wonder how much time you're putting toward school that they would rather you put toward your job. After you graduate, if you graduated with honors, then you can add magna cum laude or whatever level of honors you achieved with your gpa. JMO

kenzie · Chanel

Thanks, D. Honestly, I see this situation as a damned if I do, damned if I don't. There are just so many differing opinions out there. Some employers view pursuing further education as a good thing, others just want a corporate drone.

I can see not mentioning the GPA (something I never actually did when with my undergrad, even though it was high, too). But again, don't they want someone who excels intellectually and isn't just after a piece of paper? But as you said, they might see it as a negative because I put too much time into school and not enough into work (which isn't the case, but they could still assume that).

The only way I can see around this is to test different versions of a resume. Some with the degree, some without, change the wording, etc, and see if one starts getting a better response than the others. Just like I test everything else in marketing, I guess.

-- Edited by kenzie on Wednesday 15th of September 2010 09:05:28 AM

XtinaStyles · Marc Jacobs

Kenzie,

I think the diff resume options are a good plan to test out.

In terms of GPA, I also see it as "low level" to a degree.I would keep the masters work generic on a resume and when asked about it specifically, you can elaborate in person, explain your motivations, your 5 year plan, and slip in there the fact that you have great grades and do not get overwhelmed or plan to leave them.

In general, most people see pursuit in a secondary degree as a great asset. If you don't allow them to think it is unrelated, I don't think it is unreasonable to justify that you were taking coursework and plan on continuing it, despite what you're interviewing for.

I wonder if we may be overanalyzing to an extent. I can't imagine reading a resume and saying "oh she gets great grades, she won't be that great. we should hire a B student instead."

Hermes

XtinaStyles wrote:

I wonder if we may be overanalyzing to an extent. I can't imagine reading a resume and saying "oh she gets great grades, she won't be that great. we should hire a B student instead."

That wasn't my point. I'm assuming Kenzie is going for salaried positions, in which case, she'll be expected to work outside a normal scope of 9-5. I only suggested the idea that they may perceive her high gpa/dedication to her schoolwork as taking away from time they want her to spend on her job.