STYLETHREAD -- LET'S TALK SHOP!

bex · Chanel

dealbreaker?

esquiress · Marc Jacobs

wow, go bex. it sounds like you know your own mind and what's best for you. good luck and always listen to your gut!

also, he may start budging on the kids issue once he realizes he may lose you if he doesn't. keep us updated and thanks for sharing!

poptart · Coach

Agreed! You've got to do what you need to do, and kids are a HUGE deal. It's not something you can assume will work itself out.

But, do you think you should share your doubts with him?

Not trying to butt in - just thought I'd put the idea out there. I'm sure you'll make the right decision based on what you want and need and where you feel the relationship is headed.

tri_sarah_tops · Marc Jacobs

Kids are a huge deal. That's definitely something that a couple should agree on before getting married. I agree with what esquiress said about him budging on the issue once you bring it up. If he really wants to be with you he'll understand and may be ok with waiting a bit. But if it's going to be a huge deal, you should leave. This is definitely not something you want to deal with secretly regretting for the rest of your life.

bex · Chanel

quote:
Originally posted by: Lisa
"Agreed! You've got to do what you need to do, and kids are a HUGE deal. It's not something you can assume will work itself out. But, do you think you should share your doubts with him? Not trying to butt in - just thought I'd put the idea out there. I'm sure you'll make the right decision based on what you want and need and where you feel the relationship is headed."

do you mean about leaving or about the kids issue? because I have brought up both. the kids issue he "says" he will change his mind, but when we first started dated he said he wanted to have kids 2 years after he was married and then when he found out how i felt, he changed his mind (or so i thought) and then in the past few months (as the pending engagement/marriage is drawing nearer) he starts going back to his original plan.

i think it is one of those situations where in the beginning he secretly thought if he pushed hard enough at the issue, i would change and i thought if i pushed hard enough at the issue, he would change...

as for telling him about leaving, i think he takes it not so seriously- as if i wouldn't really do it.

splash · Kenneth Cole

Just to argue for the other side (or maybe because I'm hopelessly unrealistic), it sounds like you've met a wonderful guy, and you aren't so very different in what you want. I think you should find a potential place for yourself in the city. But also, what about 'assigning' him certain places to look, as a favor to you, for a place for both of you.
Also, you say you wouldn't mind having a baby. How many does he want? If he only wants one or two, how about moving to the city around when you have one and letting him stay home and take care of it while you get to pursue your career, since that's what's most important to you.
Probably more practical: move to the city, but continue this as a long distance relationship. That breathing room will give each of you a much better idea of how valuable your relationship is compared to the other things you don't agree about.

sephorablue · Marc Jacobs

I would say that is DEFINITELY a deal breaker. If he wants children that badly, he should be with a woman who wants that too, and not someone who feels that, as you said,

quote:
I don't have a strong desire to have children, but if they accidentally fell upon me, I guess I would accept it and try to be a decent parent.

That is a tremendous difference between the two of you, and it really is something you HAVE to work out before getting married. It would be terrible for you to marry on the agreement that "we'll see what happens," and then, five years down the road, you still don't really want kids and he still desperately does--it wouldn't be fair to either of you. It's tough too, because you're young enough that your mind isn't really made up; you haven't started getting that bizarre blast of baby hormones (which have been hitting me at 26 after years of insisting I would never have children)!--but you may end up wanting kids or you may not, it's impossible to tell. But one thing that's for sure is that you should never, ever ever have children if you're not 100% sure that you yourself want them. I've known so many people whose parents clearly just were never that into the idea of chidren in the first place but had them because their spouses wanted kids, or it just seemed like they should, and they wound up as terrible parents. You are SO RIGHT to really examine your feelings on it rather than just go with the knee-jerk reaction of assuming marriage has to entail kids. I don't like ultimatums but in this case it seems like it might be fairest to have a tough, honest talk and tell him to be completely honest about whether he would rather have a marriage with you and without children, or a marriage WITH children with someone else. You can't go into marriage with both of you saying one thing but secretly hoping the other will change their mind. And you can't be a parent who "wouldn't mind" having children. It is too tough and too all-consuming and carries such total responsibility for someone else's well-being, for you not to be 100% invested in it from the beginning.

poptart · Coach

I messed up the quote - sorry - I'm responding back to you, Bex.

Hmmmm. Yeah, I meant about the moving. Wow. It sounds like he is really assuming a lot about what you are willing to compromise on and how much he can pressure you into living the life that HE wants. It's too bad that he isn't taking you seriously, either, because I think all of us can see that you ARE serious, and from what I can tell, he'll lost a great person if he loses you.

On the other hand, it's true that you both have a right to the life that you want, which means he has a right to kids if he really wants them. It sounds like he is not the kind of person to make things happen, and you are. I think you should continue to pursue what you want, and to consider and weigh what you're willing to give up to be with him. Like Esquiress said, you can't go wrong if you follow what you truly think and believe about the situation.

-- Edited by Lisa at 19:23, 2005-04-24

-- Edited by Lisa at 19:24, 2005-04-24

blubirde · Chanel

Maybe you should be the one who "won't budge" on the kids issue and see what happens. I think kids could potentially be a deal breaker. I don't want them right now in my life and if I was with someone who did I know there would be some serious problems. I'm open to the possibility I might change my mind in the future but right now (at 26) it's not in my immediate path.

I'm really impressed that you aren't just sticking your head in the sand and going ahead with the marriage anyway. Too many people are too afraid to confront real issues and instead get caught up in real trouble later down the road.

You want to move to the city, you feel you need to move to the city, so go for it. Something as drastic as a move away from him might open up yours, his, or both of y'all's eyes regarding the future of your relationship.

Stay strong and above all else, do what YOU need to do.

bex · Chanel

wow- thanks for all of your positive remarks about my actions. i will keep you posted. i need to weigh this more and try to talk to him more about it as well.

bex · Chanel

i have been thinking... and really trying to tune in with my inner "mother" to see if i feel that i will ever have the instinct to have children. my guess is no. i saw karina's post about the carrier today and thought "my god, how awful to have a child that close to you all the time!" i just feel like Samantha when she tells that mom in the restaraunt with the kid that she should take him somewhere else... isn't that awful? however, i ADORE my BF's niece... she is hysterical and such a girly girl that i love shopping for her and playing with her and buying her polly pockets, etc. so its like i don't like babies, but i like toddlers on up... *sigh* i just am not feeling it.

a good way to describe how i feel is this: my best girlfriends and i were talking once about how we would feel if we discovered that we were barren. 2 of my friends said they would feel as though they lost a limb or part of themselves. I said i really wouldn't feel one way or another.

but, i am 25 (turning 26 next month) perhaps in 5 years, i'll change my mind. i don't know. this is a toughie!!! i am struggling so much with it...

Drew · Gucci

I think you are a strong person for looking for a place on your own. Most people stay in a situation, good or bad, because it is familiar and generally comfortable for day to day life (like your BF not looking for a new job even though he's not happy where he currently is). Listen to those little alarms going off inside. They are warning you about doing something that isn't best for you.

I think the fact that it felt so good to get it out and put it in writing for others to see is a testament that you do want to leave.

If you two are meant to be together I would imagine your relationship could handle a seperation.

If you don't want kids now or in two years, or ever, don't have them. Everyone will suffer; you, the kids, and your relationship with your spouse.

blubirde · Chanel

quote:
Originally posted by: bex
"i have been thinking... and really trying to tune in with my inner "mother" to see if i feel that i will ever have the instinct to have children. my guess is no. i saw karina's post about the carrier today and thought "my god, how awful to have a child that close to you all the time!" i just feel like Samantha when she tells that mom in the restaraunt with the kid that she should take him somewhere else... isn't that awful? however, i ADORE my BF's niece... she is hysterical and such a girly girl that i love shopping for her and playing with her and buying her polly pockets, etc. so its like i don't like babies, but i like toddlers on up... *sigh* i just am not feeling it. a good way to describe how i feel is this: my best girlfriends and i were talking once about how we would feel if we discovered that we were barren. 2 of my friends said they would feel as though they lost a limb or part of themselves. I said i really wouldn't feel one way or another. but, i am 25 (turning 26 next month) perhaps in 5 years, i'll change my mind. i don't know. this is a toughie!!! i am struggling so much with it..."

I know EXACTLY how you feel. My brother has 4 kids (eek!) ranging from 15 to 1. I love them all and I enjoy spending time around them. I like to hold babies and play basketball with the boys, but that's it. I know it's not for me because I'm also really happy to leave them. Just because you like kids, play with them, or like dressing them up, etc., doesn't mean you want to be a parent to them. And I think that's where a lot of people get it wrong. I think a lot of people like to hold a baby and ooh and aahh over the cute clothes (hey, they're cute) and they think that means they want to have one. No it doesn't. It means you think it's cute. Pure and simple. Being a parent is so much more than playing and dressing and hugging a cute baby. It's the "so much more" part that I'm not willing to give.

And again, good for you that you recognize the difference. Your rationality on these subjects continues to impress me. Trust your instincts and yourself. They seem to be leading you in the right direction.

sephorablue · Marc Jacobs

yeah it's always nice to find other women who aren't sure they want kids. For the longest time I was strictly adamant that I wouldn't, and I and my best friend, who feels the same way, always felt outnumbered. There's such an attitude of "what's wrong with you?" to a woman who doesn't want children, it infuriates me. It's exactly as you said, blubirde, too many people don't sincerely think about whether they want to be parents till the end of their lives, they just think it would be fun to play with cute well-behaved babies who sleep all night long and never turn into bratty kids or bratty teenagers or whatever. By being honest about the fact that you don't want them, you are doing such a huge amount of good towards yourself and the hypothetical unborn children.

BTW though, a bratty child who screams and misbehaves really DOESN'T have a place in a nice restaurant! Granted, I am not a parent myself, but I have noticed that a lot of parents seem to be what I consider inappropriately permissive with their children these days. I have endured screaming, unruly children in museums, movies, theaters, restaurants and even Easter Mass a few weeks ago. Have been on the subway with kids running wildly from one end of the train to another. It's not tamping down on your child's individuality and creativity to teach them how to behave politely in public, and remove them from the premises if they cannot!

laken1 · Hermes

Wow, I said I wasn't going to get on a rant about the choice of being a parent, but here I am unable to resist. When I was closer to ya'lls age (25ish) I didn't think I wanted kids but wasn't exactly sure. Everyone kept telling me that I'd know when I was ready. Everyone said "when your sister has a baby, you'll want one" - sister had baby, still no. "when your sister has ANOTHER baby, you'll be ready" - sister had baby #2, cutie as she was, nope. "when you turn 30 you'll want one" - turned 30, nope. As a matter of fact I got divorced, LOL. My new Dh & I both had stepchildren & maybe that has had an impact on both of our views of kids. I think so many people get caught up in the idea of a baby, they forget what that means. I also do believe that sometimes it is the 18 year old that accidently gets pregnant that turns into the better parent because they have always been a parent. As we ladies get older we think through the kid thing. Many of my friends & I debate this issue & totally overthink it. And as you pass 30, 31, 32, as I have, you become more set in your ways & dang, the idea of having to give up shoes to buy diapers really doesn't appeal to me. Is this wrong? I hope not. I like to think that at least I'm smart enough to admit that I'm selfish that to have a baby / child that I'd resent later for having to make the sacrifices that i would have to make to have one. Am I missing out something by not being a mother? Maybe, but I'll risk it. I once read that it's ok to be the aunt that spoils your sister's kids rotten & sends them home. I'm very happy to admit - "I am the aunt that spoils my nieces rotten" - they are precious.

But why do people still insist on assuming we are trying to have a baby? I got to the point where I'd tell people "it's a really painful topic & i'd rather not talk about it" rather than debate with complete strangers that are convinced that I will change my mind one day. Do they just want me to join the baby club because they are jealous that I can buy clothes, shoes, and my husband has an extensive electronics collection? We think it's a conspiracy!!!

After re-reading that, I really have to add that I truly admire the women who make the decision to be a mother because I really truly think it is the hardest & most important job in the world.

-- Edited by laken1 at 10:21, 2005-04-29

DC Shopper · Dooney & Bourke

well, bex, you say you are open to the idea of kids but just not anytime soon, so it's not like you two are at a complete impasse here. he just wants them asap and you don't. you are still young, and if you are like me, you are still adjusting to the idea of marriage and can't even contemplate having a child at this point. that's ok. i think i'll probably be more eager to hvae kids as I get older. we'll see. but if you think you might not even want children at all one day, you might have a problem.

but it sounds like you two are still compatible. i bet he'd follow you to the city if you just went and moved there. sometimes it can really help to get a good pre-marital counselor. even if you don't have big problems, it can help your relationship more than you might imagine. it'll give you a neutral territory where you can communicate openly about these issues.

-- Edited by DC Shopper at 17:26, 2005-04-29

carmenb513 · Coach

quote:
Originally posted by: sephorablue
"yeah it's always nice to find other women who aren't sure they want kids. For the longest time I was strictly adamant that I wouldn't, and I and my best friend, who feels the same way, always felt outnumbered. There's such an attitude of "what's wrong with you?" to a woman who doesn't want children, it infuriates me. It's exactly as you said, blubirde, too many people don't sincerely think about whether they want to be parents till the end of their lives, they just think it would be fun to play with cute well-behaved babies who sleep all night long and never turn into bratty kids or bratty teenagers or whatever. By being honest about the fact that you don't want them, you are doing such a huge amount of good towards yourself and the hypothetical unborn children. BTW though, a bratty child who screams and misbehaves really DOESN'T have a place in a nice restaurant! Granted, I am not a parent myself, but I have noticed that a lot of parents seem to be what I consider inappropriately permissive with their children these days. I have endured screaming, unruly children in museums, movies, theaters, restaurants and even Easter Mass a few weeks ago. Have been on the subway with kids running wildly from one end of the train to another. It's not tamping down on your child's individuality and creativity to teach them how to behave politely in public, and remove them from the premises if they cannot!"

Ok I'm not alone in this world! I'm not feeling very "maternal"! I'm dead set on moving up the ranks in my career.I've seen first hand how people halt your move up the ladder (not in all cases) when you decide you want children.So I think around 30-31 is good for me.

On a side note there is nothing worse than horribly behaved children. My mom would give me a look if she thought I was going to do something to embarrass her (this means screaming in church, begging in stores like I've never had anything in my life, etc) and I would straighten up in 1 sec flat...or else

I agree with you Sephorablue.That they let them act a fool in a resteraunt instead of excusing themselves until the child starts behaving like a child and not like they are the parent. Parents negiotiate waaaaay to much, for example "Little Bobbie if you stop screaming at the top of your lungs in the mall, I will buy you a toy and a happy meal" WTF? UMMMMMMMMMMM no! That's when you can tell a kid has never been any where and has not been taught how to act in public.

Ok I better stop here. I turned this into a vent.Bex I think you both can meet each other half way. I think he just thinks subconsciously I must be married by age_ and have kids by age _.He'll come around!