STYLETHREAD -- LET'S TALK SHOP!

Dizzy · Marc Jacobs

RE: Ugh. Boo.

kenzie · Chanel

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-- Edited by kenzie at 17:16, 2008-07-07

Dizzy · Marc Jacobs

Um, this whole thread appears to be people offering suggestions, and you correcting them with small details about the situation that make it hard for you to follow the advice.

I agree it's easier to give advice than it is to take it, and we don't know the situation as well as you do. I also think Farrah is right overall though. You do tend to hate your jobs. I think the jobs re pretty hateable - fwiw I think you are accurately reporting your surroundings. They sound like situations and personality conflicts I've seen before, and I know other people who have had similar work issues. So I'm not saying you're in the wrong field or doing something wrong.

I do think, though, that one thing that happens over and over to you is that you get something in your head because you think it makes sense, and it has to be your way. When I said, "direct conflict" I didn't mean that you were fighting with the other guy. I meant that you want the exact opposite of what he wants. That's direct conflict, even though you are fighting through intermediaries.

Direct conflict is bad at work. It always, always, always leads to trouble. Maybe this job could be a place where you practice other types of conflict? You aren't going to get what you want here. So is there something else here you could get? And whatever you do, please try to humor the guy who's fighting with you. He sounds like a capable opponent who's used to getting his way. He also has the home team advantage and the support of his supervisor (who has said he'll help you but actually hasn't - I think he's cashed out as far as a source for you).

Also, sometimes I think you are way too tolerant of critical and demanding people. It's like you see someone being completely unreasonable and you freak out about it and try to fight with them, rather than avoid them. Maybe this job could be a chance for practicing new ways of dealing with the crazies, too? The designer you described sounds batty. Just stay the hell away from him and let him do what he wants. You'll win a lot more points with everyone, and you'll get off his shit list. But you have to drop your sword. If he senses you are still fighting him internally, it won't work. Stop fighting him. Stop expecting him to make sense. Just stop, and he'll have to stop reacting to you.

Dizzy · Marc Jacobs

PS - The director probably will be a lot more amenable to letting you grow after some time has passed. Right now, it sounds like he just wants to know that you can do what you're asked. No more. No less. That's less stressful for him. He probably sees this as you proving yourself in your new job. You have a lot of talent, so you want to show off, but it sounds like he would be happier with an unstressful 4 than a superstar 10 here. Managing people is hard, and some managers prefer less capable people because they're easier to deal with.

I think this situation could end up working out in your favor. If they are this lazy about things, just the passage of time will give you a lot more room to maneuver and power over the situation.

kenzie · Chanel

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-- Edited by kenzie at 17:16, 2008-07-07

lynnie · Chanel

Unfortunately, until you are your own boss, this is going to happen to some extent at a lot of places. Here is my take from a different perspective..

There is only a certain amount of "fun" work to go around. Sometimes people are hired to do their job in their boxes, regardless of whether they have talents and capabilities otherwise. Bosses know that- they just don't want to hear you complaining. It is just another stressor for them to try to figure out projects for you to do. I know this firsthand as I'm constantly trying to come up with things for interns to work on. Sometimes, they just need to be there in case something comes up, and there isn't always work in the meantime. Luckily, you are paid regardless- they are not.

Also, I am the first employee at my job at a small company. I am not going to pass creative projects to our production manager that might also like to do them. I am just going to make myself busier- do my regular job plus the extra work. It is just how it is. We are probably both capable and I"m not KILLING myself to do them, just doing a few extra projects because I want to.

Hate to say this, but everyone wants to be the shining star at their company. It sounds like this guy would rather keep himself busy and not relinquish control. It is his job description- you have to let it slide.

However, in the meantime, I guess you have to figure out how you can get HIS job at a different company. And bide your time and keep yourself happy in other ways.

kenzie · Chanel

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-- Edited by kenzie at 17:15, 2008-07-07

Dizzy · Marc Jacobs

By "tolerant," I mean that it seems like you see someone acting like a freak, and you sort of say, "Hey everyone! This guy is acting like a freak! Does it seem like he is doing that to you? Yeah! This is freaky!" Then you start fighting with him about his freaky behavior and coming up with theories about how freaky he is. You never seem to avoid the freaks, you run at them.

The problem is, if the freak was there first, then everyone already knows he's freaky, and they've chosen to tolerate it. He also knows he's freaky, and he's acting this way because it gives him what he wants. It's not a situation that requires analysis or explanation or participation by you.

So when you see freak, you should instantly realize you are at a disadvantage and think about how to avoid or minimize the damage. Instead, you fight with them by trying to fix the freakiness, and you end up hurt every time. Being capable and wanting to fix things and stand out is a good trait if the situation actually is in your control. If it's not, then it's a lot of trouble.

This isn't exactly advice, just something I've noticed. If you want to turn it into advice, it would be, "I strongly recommend you stop fighting and investigating and otherwise poking the freaks. Leave. Them. Alone. Because they will hurt you." Also, maybe stop hopping around looking for better situations. You're just going to keep running into these people because they can see you coming, know they can manipulate you, and you cannot stop yourself from reacting. If you could work on avoiding the temptation to poke them or fight them or otherwise get what you want from them, then they'll go away for the most part. I swear.

Dizzy · Marc Jacobs

PS - Is there someone in your life who was completely unreasonable, and never gave you what you wanted? There was someone in mine like that, and I cut off contact after I learned how to manage a psycho boss. It was like the two were tied.

Dizzy · Marc Jacobs

PS - Is there someone in your life who was completely unreasonable, and never gave you what you wanted? There was someone in mine like that, and I cut off contact after I learned how to manage a psycho boss. It was like the two issues were tied together in my head, and anyone who acted crazy made me stay for the abuse because I kept thinking I'd fix the situation, in work, home, everywhere.

kenzie · Chanel

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-- Edited by kenzie at 17:15, 2008-07-07

Dizzy · Marc Jacobs

Yeah, he sounds like a classic bully, and I'm sorry you have to put up with that.

What I'm trying to say is: This whole thread is 1) You describing actions you took to get what you wanted in terms of more work, which IS fighting with him, because it's clearly not what he wanted. And 2) You correcting us on small points.

It comes off as if you're really strong in analysis and strategy, and really weak in protecting yourself. You don't seem to think of protecting yourself by avoiding people who hurt you, you run at them. Also, the way you break down everything we say and respond makes it seem as though you've had to deal with a lot of criticism before, and your response is to analyze the criticism, rather than avoid it.

I think my definition of the words "fight" and "protect" are different than the way you use them. From what you've described, you fight to protect yourself. It's not the same thing. The way I'm using the terms, fighting is doing what someone else clearly does not want you to do. And protecting yourself can be avoiding a fight. You definitely did the first here, and I haven't heard you describe doing the second.

Finally, the problem isn't that you're bored at work, the problem is that someone is taking your projects. This problem is compounded by a spineless boss who just wants you to keep your head down and do what you're told until he knows he can count on you. That's not fun, and the cure is time. Not fighting. Fighting will make things worse, and looking at this thread, it looks like fighting is your favorite coping strategy. This plays into the freak's game, and is a problem that can follow you around.

Dizzy · Marc Jacobs

RE: nm

kenzie · Chanel

Dizzy wrote:

Ok. Sorry. I didn't mean to offend you, and taking down the whole posts sort of makes it seem like you weren't happy with the thread. Good luck with your boss.

It's okay. I just didn't see much value in keeping the posts up. I appreciate everyone's opinions and advice. Thanks.

Kincali · Dooney & Bourke

kenzie wrote:

Dizzy wrote:

Ok. Sorry. I didn't mean to offend you, and taking down the whole posts sort of makes it seem like you weren't happy with the thread. Good luck with your boss.

It's okay. I just didn't see much value in keeping the posts up. I appreciate everyone's opinions and advice. Thanks.

It was of value to me if that makes a difference. I'm very similar to Kenzie in my work environments, and I can't seem to stop my behavior. Like Dizzie said, you seem to be very analytical and I am as well.

I seriously feel like I have some built in filter to pick up on personality traits. I notice everything down to a person's gait, the way they roll their eyes, the inflections in their voice, and just the general way they carry themselves. Picking out "freaks" in the workplace

is easy, avoiding them is my problem as well.

At the same time I feel like constantly avoiding bad behavior is also enabling the person to continue to behave like a freak. I don't know what the right answer is, but to keep moving up in your career Dizzy's avoid and go around seems to work best.

Sorry this has become long winded, but I do have a karma coming around story to share. I left a toxic job because of a co-worker, who did my job before me. It wasn't just me in particular, her temper was felt by everyone, and it was exhausting. Right after I put in my notice they made the tech guy clean out my computer(her old computer) where they discovered several images of her posing naked

The group had been wondering if her boobs were fake and now they all know that they are indeed.

esquiress · Marc Jacobs

Dizzy, your advice was helpful to me too, which is always the case :) In all seriousness, you should really think about writing a book on surviving/succeeding in the workplace.

Fairlight, you make a fair point (lol) about how maybe avoiding the freak is actually enabling that person. Here's my theory on that: it's not my job (or my place) to play policeman and make sure everyone is getting what they deserve. ESPECIALLY not at work. I just have to watch out for me and make sure I come off smelling like a rose no matter what. And I can't smell like a rose if I'm seen slinging mud, no matter how much the mud deserves to be slung. (by the way using the word "slung" just made me giggle).

Back to kenzie, not sure if you're still looking for input at this point and I'm certainly not sure how much I can provide, given that I came into this late and didn't even see your posts before you deleted them. Here's what I can infer from the other girls' comments and my memory of what you've posted before:

Some guy has the job you want, and gets to do stuff you want to do.

You're bored to tears at your own job and wish you could help with his.

He resents your efforts to do so.

You've told a higher up and received no help.

Here's the thing: How would you feel if you knew that some newbie wanted YOUR job? Even if you were crazy-busy and could use the help, would you take it from the newbie? Or would you feel threatened? So threatened that you'd rather work all night than give an ounce of work to that newbie?

Maybe you'd be the bigger person and give work to the newbie. But it's at least understandable that someone wouldn't necessarily want to take that course of action, right?

As for Farrah's comment about you always hating whatever job you've been at, yeah it does seem that way. But to a certain extent, don't we all? Besides, some of us go back a LONG while, (like we remember all our username changes from back in the day, like when so and so used to go by so and so, that type of thing), so we're bound to remember stuff. I will say this though, I remember the SUPERunhappy posts you used to write and whatever's going on now doesn't seem to hold a candle to the stuff you were dealing with back then. So take heart, because you've come a long way, and I can't wait to see where your journey takes you next. :)

kenzie · Chanel

esquiress wrote:

Some guy has the job you want, and gets to do stuff you want to do.

You're bored to tears at your own job and wish you could help with his.

He resents your efforts to do so.

You've told a higher up and received no help.

And this is where I think my original post was misinterpreted (not by you, but by others reading the actual posts when they were there). While I think there is a lot of valid and good advice throughout this thread, I think there's been a lot of misinterpretation about what's really going on and how strongly (or not strongly I'm reacting to it).

Here's the situation:
I do not want this guy's job; I like writing and developing concepts. He has zero senority over me in company hierachy. My position would be above his in most companies/ad agencies. We were hired at the same time, so no longevity senority either. I'm not a newbie any more than he is. We've both been there for just over a year and have the relatively the same amount of working experience (I have more education). It's also worth noting my position was a brand new position within the company so growing pains are inevitable (his wasn't; he replaced someone).

However, I'm bored with my job because there isn't enough to do (there are actually other people doing things that are part of my job description because they aren't busy enough either and/or they did it before my position was created- that's another issue I'm not even going to discuss further). I've gone to my supervisor and asked for more projects (extra projects, not coworker's projects), but he hasn't given me any (probably because there aren't any). Meanwhile, the other guy is drowning in work, asking for help (my help). I am capable (trained and have a portfolio to prove it) of helping him when I have time (which I do now) and they aren't letting me help, but are actually going to hire another graphic designer and a design intern. But I'm still unecessarily bored and I could save the company lots of money by pitching in to help so they don't have to hire another designer and intern (we pay our interns). YOu would think this would be a plus.

There were some previous issues with said coworker where he was stepping on my toes and doing things that were my job (writing, concepts, etc- he is not trained or capable of doing what I do, no portfolio or work experience in it). He has been told about that and has since stopped those shananigans.

Honestly, despite what anyone here says, my main problem is bored. Coworker and I are not having issues at all anymore, mainly because I did ignore his ridiculous behavior and didn't fight with him or whine about him to other coworkers (or even to our boss)- short of the ridiculous blow-up which he initiated and completely attacked me while I remained pretty calm and presented him with facts to blow holes in his argument. Other than that, I just mentioned there were some issues with copy and suggested ways to fix it to our boss within our ad approval system and that solved it (see previous paragraph).

Sigh. This is the thread that won't die.

ETA: You're right esquiress. Much less horrific than when I was working in retail and temping. Those were awful, awful, non-creative jobs and I was miserable. As far as I'm concerned, hating those situations can't be grouped into the jobs I've had in my field (all of which I have not hated). Boredom at a job in my field is much more tolerable.

Fairlight- that's hysterical about your old coworker. biggrin

-- Edited by kenzie at 17:12, 2008-07-09