STYLETHREAD -- LET'S TALK SHOP!

halleybird · Hermes

Is college a load of crap? - a spinoff rant

Drew · Gucci

My SO and I could really relate. He dropped out of college (with like one semester left to go to graduate) because he couldn't stand "the system" anymore; he had enough credits to graduate but you know how universities can be - they wouldn't accept a ton of credits and he needed another semester to graduate so he said fuck it, left, and never looked back. I am at the sophmore level in college at 27 years old. We run a very successful business with 5 years under our belt. His brother went to college, law school, then went to Tulane for a master's in law (come on, who gets a masters in law?), and he was already let go at one job, and constantly whines about his current job which has a take home pay of about 40K; the wife makes twice what he makes but has student loans up to her ears to pay off. They are high in debt. SO and I are debt free with a nice nest egg.

My sister sells cell phone service for a living with her college degree in marketing. Boy is she putting that degree to good use.

A friend of ours is probably about 10 years from jumping off a bridge due to his cubicle office job that he absolutely loathes; he put in his four years at college too. Seriously, this guy is only 30 and already looks 40 and totally resigned about his shitty life.

Lesson? College isn't necessary at all for success in the US, but because of the intense competition it is often required for paltry-paying jobs (see my sister's example above). The real key to success is hard work and working for yourself (you can contract yourself out for most type of work, especially computer stuff).

Guess I needed to rant too.

honey · Gucci

college is a load of crap honestly the whole higher education system was not structured to allow people to succeed. i studied education a little bit in college and this is what i learned. the whole idea of going to college to succeed in life is a lot of bs. the original intent of most college curriculums was not to provide students with practical real world skills. (if you think about it a lot of the older i.e. more well known colleges specialize in liberal arts programs, which while great for turning you into a kick ass thinker, are not so good for teaching you how to live in the real world). back in the day (first half of the 1900's though arguably well into the late 90s) a college education was used to bar entrance to more well paying professions in the sense that you had to have a degree to be a lawyer but you didn't need a degree to be a farmer. well b/f the gov. got involved (i.e. grants & loans) only rich people could afford to send their kids to college. so it was cyclical and the rich got richer. once the "poorer" people figured this out they started pushing for their kids to go to college too, and soon enough the federal government became involved, so now there are lots of ways to go to college. but the value of a college education has diminished since so many people now have them. making it pretty worthless, but imo you're still better off than you'd be with no degree.

eta: imo the only way to really make money is to work for yourself. even if you don't make that much, you'll still be much happier than you would slaving away for someone else.

-- Edited by honey at 16:11, 2005-01-06

DC Shopper · Dooney & Bourke

I feel you, halleybird. I am going to have a master's and I'm prob. going to start out at 40,000/yr if I'm lucky! But i'm still glad i got me some higher education - it opened my eyes up to more possibilities than if i hadn't gone to college. i think that a liberal arts degree can be valuable, but right now career-based degrees (law, engineering, science, computers...) lead to better paying jobs (generally speaking, of course). of course, if you're like me and suck really bad at the above disciplines, a liberal arts degree is more valuable.

I think those who succeed with only a h.s. degree are those who have an entrepreneurial spirit and are very driven to succeed. you have to be a self-starter, and be really good at what you do. otherwise, it's pretty hard to get a good job w/o a college education. at least in a place like DC.

-- Edited by DC Shopper at 16:19, 2005-01-06

Karina · Chanel

honestly, i haven't finished my bachelor's degree, and i make a damn good salary for someone who has not finished college and is my age. my friend who has a bachelor's and is 4 yrs older than me makes the same as me - and we have the same job title.

to get a good, well paying job, i think its all about your work experience, some college background and how you sell yourself.

-- Edited by Karina at 16:20, 2005-01-06

ayo · Coach

See I wouldn't say college is a load of crap. I honestly think that it has a lot to do with what sort of degree you get. I have a technical background (computer science to be exact). I make probably twice as much money as a lot of my friends that did liberal arts degrees.

I do have some friends with liberal arts backgrounds that ended up in technical fields and they are also doing very well.

I'm not saying this to say everyone who makes good money does do because they went to college...but in my experience going to college certainly hasn't hurt..

oh and I don't have that many student loans (neither does my sib)..we were fortunate enough to get some scholarships and my folks took care of the rest..

(sorry edited it because I was starting to feel weird about that much personal info although might not make that much diff since it was quotes

)

-- Edited by ayo at 16:21, 2005-01-06

-- Edited by ayo at 16:28, 2005-01-06

-- Edited by ayo at 16:51, 2005-01-06

honey · Gucci

quote:
Originally posted by: ayo
My younger brother is 25 is completing his MBA at Yale, he already has an offer with a top firm making six figures. Granted I'm making approximately six figures now but I had to work harder than him to get there because I don't have an advanced degree.

this is part of the reason why i feel like college is a load of crap. (not entirely true, but for the sake of argument). in line with the theory that college degrees weren't originally designed to make you smarter in an objective sense, as more people got college degrees, the entrance barriers get higher. so whereas before you had to have a degree to make 6 figures, now you have to have an advanced degree. to look at it from another perspective it's simple supply and demand.

ayo · Coach

well I don't have an advanced degree and I do ok....but I also have more work experience than him...so I did have to work a little longer to get there..

so I dunno..

-- Edited by ayo at 16:52, 2005-01-06

cc · Marc Jacobs

i strongly disagree that college is a load of crap. instead i think the idea that a college degree is automatically going to mean a better salary is crap.

personally, i would much rather have a job that doesn't pay that well but is interesting and makes use of my skills than do something like paint houses which might pay better but sounds really boring and wouldn't require me to use much of my brain.

i think the problem is that people got into the mind set of college being necessary to get a good job and make good money, which for many people just isn't the case.

also, it's not necessarily about what you major in either, but what you choose to do as a career. i know a lot of guys who were liberal arts majors but wound up working in IT and make great money. you don't necessarily have to have a degree in something practical in order to get a good job.

i also think college is really important in terms of intellectual growth and life experience/maturity. a lot of people aren't ready to go into the workforce right out of high school so there needs to be something that fills up the years to adulthood and helps people reach that point.

Maddie · Coach

Having just finished my first semester of college, I realize I have very little perspective on this. However, I do not think college is a load of crap. If your objective in going to college is to increase your salary then there's a good chance you're not going to be satisfied. That is not why I went to college, though. I think there is a lot of money to be made without a college degree if you are interested in being an entrepreneur or something, but I could never do that. I went to college to become a more well rounded, educated person and to be able to get a career I love. I want to be a biologist which would be very difficult to do without a degree. So even if someone who didn't go to college is making more money than me, they don't have what I wanted anyways.

honey · Gucci

cc is way more articulate than i will ever be. essentially that's what i'm arguing, the idea that going to college is automatically going to mean that you make more money is not true.

cc · Marc Jacobs

RE: RE: Is college a load of crap? - a spinoff ran

luckylily · Gucci

RE: Is college a load of crap? - a spinoff rant

halleybird · Hermes

well, I never meant college itself was crap...I actually said college=higher earning potential was crap. I am glad that I went to college -- I learned a lot and I loved my classes.

BUT I know many, many high school seniors, I can tell you that the message being sent to kids is college=more money later in life. And if they knew that college was more about learning, life experience, etc., I bet 75% of those applying to college would rethink their plans -- at least their plans to go right after high school.

My job does challenge me, and it is fulfilling. But sometimes I get very, very sad over the fact that I work 60-70 hours per week and I will never, ever make more than $40,000. I am considering grad school soon, but only for the opportunity to move to another, closely-related but equally low-paying industry.

Getting another career is, of course, an option. But salary-wise, I think it is much more beneficial to do "blue collar"/trade work or, as drew or honey said, to own your own business.

esquiress · Marc Jacobs

i don't think that college is a load of crap but i think having a sense of entitlement is--meaning that feeling like you're "owed" something because you went to college (or for any other reason) is a sure fire way to feeling unhappy and resentful. i agree with aspects of what every single poster has already said. college doesn't equal success but neither does anything else you know? because i bet we could all supply anecdotes of people we know who either:

went to college and made tons of $

or went to college and didn't make much $

or didn't go to college and made tons of $

or didn't go to college and didn't make much $

and then you put hard work into the equation and it gets even more complicated!

and not to sound like a cliche but since when did $ equal happiness, anyway? i just really feel like life's about the journey, you know? and personally, i don't care if i'd never gotten that slip of paper that said i graduated--the experience itself enriched me and for that, i will always be thankful.

Elle · Hermes

Going to college 'just because' is a luxury my family couldn't afford. It's also something I find quite impractical - I feel like one of the reasons we have so many college educated people without careers is because of the pressure to go to college for something, anything right out of highschool. If they had had more time to think about it, maybe there wouldn't be so many changed majors, misguided degrees, and wasted time and money. Instead of spending 4 years in college 'for the experience', I would have much rather travelled around the world and met people from many different cultures, countries, races. I'm not saying that book-learning is useless, I just personally value life-learning and people-learning much more. It enriches your life in a very meaningful way, IMHO.

If someone is looking to make money from getting their degree, technical programs are the way to go. Right now, my fiance is finishing up his 2-year Echocardiography degree. Though he will only come out of the program with an associates degree, he will be more qualified than most of the echocardiographers that went through a 4-year bachelors program (the Registry pass rate for graduates of my fiance's program is 99.8%, the average pass rate for a 4-year program is less than 70%). His starting wage will likely be more than $60,000 a year to start, and he will end up with 2 more years of salary and experience than a graduate of a 4-year program.

Why put the cart before the horse and go to school before you know what you're going to school for?

Just my .

jen · Kate Spade

My #1 pet peeve in life....Teachers do not make enough money. C'mon people, they are educating our doctors, lawyers, next president, down to our Wal-Mart employees, Wendy's servers, dog groomers... EVERYONE! Why don't teachers get paid more when they actually interact and provide influence on our entire future?!?!? It is the most important job in the world and we are paying them less than a guy that paints a fu**ing house?! My God...

Andrea Julia · Coach

quote:
Originally posted by: jen
"My #1 pet peeve in life....Teachers do not make enough money. C'mon people, they are educating our doctors, lawyers, next president, down to our Wal-Mart employees, Wendy's servers, dog groomers... EVERYONE! Why don't teachers get paid more when they actually interact and provide influence on our entire future?!?!? It is the most important job in the world and we are paying them less than a guy that paints a fu**ing house?! My God..."

Teachers in my county make good money. They start off at $40,000 no experience and after gaining a master's and a few years experience, they can make a lot more. They have listed salaries of some of the teachers (granted, the ones that are heads of the dept and stuff) in the schools in my town and some are making almost $100,000. I think that teachers do pretty well. I don't really understand why everyone considers it such a low paying career. There are definitely careers that pay a lot less than that.

ayo · Coach

I guess what I was simply trying to say is that don't ever think that your college education was a waste of time simply because you aren't making a ton of money. If what you want to do in life requires a college degree then you are building towards your future not wasting your time. On the otherhand if you are going to college to be an accountant and you know all the while you want to be a bricklayer, why not invest that money into your business or to sharpen your skills in that trade.

I happen to love what I do and I make alright money doing it, although I probably didn't need a college degree to get here (I know plenty of people with only HS diploma's that are IT managers) I do believe my degree did give me an advantage. The reality of the matter is that I am a black woman who's a child of immigrants. I've always been taught that the only way for me to really make it in this country is to get some sort of technical or advanced degree. I honestly can't say I disagree with them either, it's just the reality of the world we live in. I don't think anyone is disputing that the collegiate experience in and of itself is priceless. It definitely helped me to grow up and exposed me to things I might not have experienced otherwise.

I really feel bad for how teachers are paid. Although when you get to the college professor level all that sympathy goes down the drain, some of the professors at the local Univ here are making 200k+ . I know because they publicize their salaries every year.

Ultimately I think that if you are doing what you love, what you were born to do, the money won't make a difference to you. I'm not going to paint walls to make my big million..I'm content with my little salaried existence writing computer programs

halleybird · Hermes

quote:
Originally posted by: Andrea Julia
"Teachers in my county make good money. They start off at $40,000 no experience and after gaining a master's and a few years experience, they can make a lot more. They have listed salaries of some of the teachers (granted, the ones that are heads of the dept and stuff) in the schools in my town and some are making almost $100,000. I think that teachers do pretty well. I don't really understand why everyone considers it such a low paying career. There are definitely careers that pay a lot less than that. "

it all depends on where you live, of course...but my state has notoriously low salaries. If I stayed in Tucson, I would make $22,000 before taxes. I don't remember where you live, but there are some states with decent salaries (AZ not among them), but the salary you mentioned is not the national norm (which about $43,000 for veteran teachers).

The reason teachers complain about money is because our job requires so many different types of skills at once. When I am in a classroom, I am a) delivering a lesson or assignment; b) constantly correcting and reprogramming behavior; c)watching for those kids who may be needing extra help (emotional or academic) d) trying to be equitable in terms of workloads (i.e. is Bobby getting called on as much as Jill is?) e) adjusting the lesson to be faster-paced for the gifted kids, or slower-paced for the LD kids. I am doing this all at once, five times a day, every day. In addition to teaching, I am also responsible for being the Gum Police, the Dress Code Police, a social worker, a mentor, a role model, a letter-writer, a tutor and an involved co-worker. In addition, the "real job" is not when the kids are there -- it's the meetings, the planning, the constant re-evaluation of work, and don't get me started on the grading (150 freshman research papers...makes for some fun weekends).

Also, I am required to attend all sorts of school events and activities for which I do not get paid. I am responsible for being reachable 18 hours a day to parents and students with questions -- sometimes longer. My lunch break is 33 minutes, 15 of which are usually full of students getting extra help. I am lucky if I get one bathroom break in the 7-hour schoolday. I do not get Christmas bonuses, holiday parties, paid trips, overtime or any other perks that my husband and others I know get from their jobs.

I love my job -- if I didn't, I could easily go back to being a copy editor or reporter. I am sure I sound defensive, but I have had a lot of other jobs in journalism, retail, etc. and none of them even comes close to the work I have to do as a teacher. Sometimes it gets really old to hear people say, "well, you have 3 months off a year" (unpaid months off, that is.) or "must be nice to go home at 2:15" (I wouldn't know...if I'm at home at 2:15, I'm grading).

My concern in this topic was not what I was told, but what students are expecting when they attend college. Personally, I went to college because I was a brown-nosing overachiever. Salary didn't really matter.