STYLETHREAD -- LET'S TALK SHOP!

As other posters have noted, I think it is completely within the school's rights to deem what is and is not appropriate for wearing on school grounds, and in this case the girl in question had to know she was going to stir something up.  She has to know the flag is controversial and that it provokes extremely strong reactions.  She wore it to her prom, a big event where everyone would be -- she was making a statement.  I also think any argument that the flag is merely a symbol of Southern pride is completely erroneous and misleading.

The flag we all know as the Confederate Flag (also called the Southern Cross) was actually never used as the national flag of the Confederacy.  It was actually a battle standard, one of many flags flown by Confederate soldiers in battle during the Civil War.  The Conferderacy had three different successive national flags; in the second one they incorporated the Southern Cross as part of the design, but there was more to it.  After the war ended, the flag pretty much disappeared until the Civil Rights movement and then it re-emerged as a defiant symbol against integration.  That's when it was incorporated into various state flags in the South, and the KKK started using it.  So to say that it symbolizes Southern pride is incorrect, even if that's how some Southerners may honestly think of it -- that flag now symbolizes oppression of black Americans.  It was never used to represent the Southern states during the war; it was used to say "we like segregation."  That's why it's offensive, and that's also why people need to think about what they're actually trying to say when they wear something like that dress. 

If you're interested, you can read more here:

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/confederate1.html

And I also highly suggest Tony Horwitz's book "Confederates in the Attic," which chronicles a series of trips he took in the South researching how people there view the Civil War today.  One of the chapters is about the murder of someone who had the Confederate flag on his car. 

(My screen name Scarlett comes from my early love of "Gone With the Wind," which then turned into a big interest in Civil War history, hence my lengthy post here.)

 

-- Edited by scarlett at 16:33, 2004-12-22

-- Edited by scarlett at 16:49, 2004-12-22

"See, it's my understanding that the Confederate flag isn't controversial in the South."

Really? I thought it was hugely controversial? Wasn't there some big fight going on in - hmmm - Arkansas or Alabama over flying it over the state buildings (or something...it's a bit vague in my memory)?

scarlett - thanks for your post, I didn't know that specific history. I am not accusing anyone of racism. But I also don't think the fact that a given individual doesn't find it 'offensive' is a very good argument. Even if they don't feel anything other than pride when they see the flag, wouldn't the fact that a large proportion of their neighbours DO react negatively stop them? I mean, just out of basic civility?

You know, Maddie, people *here* display the confederate flag, if you can believe that! I often see it on pick-up trucks (along with bumper stickers that say "Hippies Suck" and "Proud to be a Redneck") - I think people display it here as some kind of yeah, I drink beer and wear baseball caps and love my shotgun type pride thing, but it's basically harmless, mostly because I'd say 95% of Canadians are fairly clueless about the history.

I'm not really disagreeing with anything you've said - I believe that you have liberal friends who display it in an innocent way - I just personally would not make the decision to do so myself, and I feel "iffy" about others doing so. I'd actually be interested in hearing your friend's take on it. I just - well, the history of the flag itself - especially with the info Scarlett posted, seems verrrry dodgy to me. I think in a lot of ways the flag is the current symbol for a lot of issues in the south that are still very recent (desegregation for one) and haven't been fully processed by the culture at large.

honey, you posit a really interesting question about the swastika as a symbol of German pride, and i've heard the same theory about Germans going with Hitler because they'd been so downtrodden after World War I.  but my gut reaction to this is, with the swastika being such a loaded symbol, it would be so much better and more effective to show one's pride in a different way.  i can't imagine the swastika ever not provoking terrible connotations, even though from what little i know of it's origins it's a symbol that's been used since prehistoric times and the Nazis appropriated it for their own use.  i've heard there are still some feelings of shame in germany about the country's role in WWII.  but what's your take on it?  i'd be really interested to hear what you think.

mia, i think your responses are so well thought out and expressive, and i really enjoy reading them.  i hope i didn't come across as implying you were accusing anyone of racism -- i didn't think so at all.  if anything, i get a little fired up myself over the Confederate flag issue.  you make a really good point about not wearing the flag out of basic civility to people.  that's so true.  you know, why wear something you know is going to really make someone mad?  i guess i think that's why some people -- not all, but some -- display the Confederate flag.  when i was little i even had a raft at the beach with the flag on it, which i loved because of the car on "Dukes of Hazard."  so i've done it myself.

-- Edited by scarlett at 11:17, 2004-12-23

scarlett OTM.

schools can assert any dress code they choose. it's like the NFL or any professional sport--it's not a government and doesn't have anything to do with freedom of speech because schools have their own rules. that's why they kept that Denver quarterback from putting the initials of the player who died in Iraq's initials on his helmet (though that does not bode well with me).

i appreciate that the confederate flag has different meaning to different folks, especially younger people who were born after the civil rights movement, but it definitely has a negative connotation for everyone i've known. whenever i see it i think of hank williams jr. singing "if the south would've won we'da had it made" and how my 55-yr-old boss once said that things were so much easier in the '50s. well, yeah, for YOU! you're white middle-class. the confederate flag just makes me bristle in the same way that my friend's grandma's statue of a little black boy on her front porch does. to me they symbolize a sad aspect of US history.

and yes, the swastika was claimed by the nazis for their own purposes. you can see swastikas in asian country shops and they don't have the same meaning. but when most of your ancestors died in the holocaust, i don't think it's something you'd want to see on a prom dress (not that anyone implied that, i'm just saying). i still don't like the whole holocaust/slavery comparison though... both terrible things, but completely different. i mean in terms of modern america, racism is still rampant (at least where i live) and i feel like i slip under the radar... it's different when the color of your skin makes people make instant judgments without getting to know you. sure, most of my ancestors died in the holocaust, but i haven't experienced the racism black people experience.

honey, i definitely think it was an interesting comparison.  in my nerdy way i like thinking about this stuff and what the power of symbolds and how they change is.

and in general i like it that this current events forum is here for what has been a very thought provoking and good discussion.  sometimes i think i don't use my brain as much as i used to when i was in school. 

 

p.s. mizzle, what does OTM mean?  sorry, i don't know many abbreviations...

-- Edited by scarlett at 11:04, 2004-12-24