STYLETHREAD -- LET'S TALK SHOP!

Hermes

Confederate Flag Prom Dress

Elle · Hermes

While I can understand how her dress may be perceived as 'controversial', it's not as if she wrapped herself in a confederate flag and marched on the capitol building (clarification: not that that's not her right, but what she did was not nearly as extreme)! The school was absolutely in the wrong on this one, but they did what they thought they had to do, and now so will she.

-- Edited by LMonet at 13:55, 2004-12-21

honey · Gucci

i think it's a lot of bs. while she does have the right to freely express herself there are limitations placed on the right, and schools have historically limited the ways in which students could express that right via dress codes, probihiting offensive language, etc. the idea of her showing up in a (hideous) dress designed to look like the confederate flag, and not expecting some sort of controversy is absolutely ludicrous to me. so i'm kind of like that's what you get for being a dummy (not saying she's dumb b/c she chose to wear a confederate flag, but dumb for not expecting a reaction.)

eta: just read LMonet's post and imo, wrapping herself in the confederate flag and marching on the capitol building is within the realms of free speech. so if she got arrested for that, i would totally be on her side.

-- Edited by honey at 13:50, 2004-12-21

asf · Kate Spade

hmm...this is a tough one. if they had let her in, what about all the students who could be offended by the dress? what if someone had started a fight with her, thinking her dress meant she was a racist? then the school would be responsible for whatever happened as a result of her dress, since they let her in.

i guess i think the school did the right thing, but i also think she'll win her lawsuit.

Maddie · Coach

I think her free speech was defintely violated. It's my understanding that in the South the Confederate flag is not neccessarily viewed as a symbol of what the Confederacy stood for in terms of slavery and stuff, but more of a sign of Southern pride. Perhaps hick Southern pride, but I don't think it is inherently racist or anything, although it's certainly not something I would ever wear. I guess I think the school was totally wrong and she'll defintely win the suit. Although I doubt this is a girl I'd be friends with.

Fireball · BCBG

I don't really understand why this would be controersial. I see the confederate flag very often on cars and other things, and I don't even live in the south. I imagine that in the South, that flag is practically everywhere. Or not, and maybe I'm wrong.

Schools are weird sometimes about what they label as inapporiate and controersial.

I'm interested to see what happens with this though.

honey · Gucci

for those of you who feel her rights were violated where does a school draw the line? maybe this is a direct result of my education, but when i was in school we had a dress code and there were lots of prohibitions on our behavior, and many things that we could do in the "real" world, were prohibited on school grounds but no one sued.

DC Shopper · Dooney & Bourke

I think the school acted within its rights. public schools have dress codes that can be somewhat arbitrary but the administrators decide what can or can't be worn on the basis of whether the article of clothing is disrespectful, crude, distracting, or a symbol of gang membership. i think many people view the confederate flag as disrepectful and even racist, so i think the school acted within its bounds.

apart from that, my personal opinion on this is - who the hell wears a confederate flag dress and then gets pissed when someone objects to it? it is true that many southern whites view the confederate flag as a symbol of southern pride - not racism. it is just as true, however, than many blacks (and people of all races) DO consider the flag to be a symbol of racism. because of that, i think anyone wearing a confederate flag to a school event should be prepared for the consequences.

on the other hand, since i believe the georgia flag still has the confederate symbol on it, one could argue that the dress is not that bad, since a whole state still has it as its flag and flies it in public places. but this flag is really controversial, and for good reason.

Mia · Kate Spade

If she had tried to wear this to a public place, I would be on her side. Well - what I mean is, protecting freedom of speech and expression also means protecting the speech and expression of cheesy people with borderline offensive taste - but honey is right. Schools have dress codes and students being sent home to change or not allowed into the school based on what they're wearing is not uncommon, nor is it a rights violation.

By the way, that is one of the most hideous dresses I have ever seen. Is that what they mean by 'redneck pride'?

-- Edited by Mia at 21:05, 2004-12-21

jen · Kate Spade

Hmmm...I've never understood why this flag is seen as bad. It was a flag used by the south to represent their states. Slavery occured then. That is it. I don't see why people think it is a symbol of hate, not of the southern states. For example, Germany executed many poles and jews during the second world war. It was horrible! If I wore a german flag dress would people be getting upset? NO!! Why is this different? I just don't see why people connect these two things and not others. I think she had full rights to wear it. Good for her!

Mia · Kate Spade

"It was a flag used by the south to represent their states. Slavery occured then."

I would also add that it occured there. Not everyone who displays a Confederate flag is a racist, I understand that. However, the connection between the flag and slavery exists - it was the flag of a region that practiced slavery. To me this is more an issue of sensitivity (which I am against legislating, btw). I am not particulalry offended by the confederate flag because I'm Canadian and white. However, I accept that a person from a different background, given their personal history, might be more offended than I am. That alone would lead me to decide *against* any overt displays of the flag.

It's obviously a sensitive, controversial issue. My default position would be hey, if it might insult people and I can gow ithout it, I'll go without it. Do I think that girl has the right to make clothes out of flags? Yes. But I am also allowed to think she's a crass boor for doing so.

As for the German flag, I think it's the swastika (a symbol not originally used by nazis) that has played the role of 'taboo symbol' since then.

It is still not 100% cool to display the Union Jack too prominently in England (especially on your person) because of associations with racism and extreme right-wing skinheads.

Symbols, and especially flags, are powerful and they mean different things to different people.

Karina · Chanel

I would be totally offended if someone arrived to my prom dressed like that, but she has a right to wear whatever she wanted. She's also not a minor, she's a 19 yr old high school student.

Now what is this about "She's also suing for defamation, false imprisonment and assault"?

honey · Gucci

quote:
Originally posted by: jen
"Hmmm...I've never understood why this flag is seen as bad. It was a flag used by the south to represent their states. Slavery occured then. That is it. I don't see why people think it is a symbol of hate, not of the southern states. For example, Germany executed many poles and jews during the second world war. It was horrible! If I wore a german flag dress would people be getting upset? NO!! Why is this different? I just don't see why people connect these two things and not others. I think she had full rights to wear it. Good for her!"

while i'm not personally "offended" by the confederate flag i would probably cross the street if i saw somone walking towards me wearing it.

also i think saying that it's just a symbol is oversimplification. yes it was used by the south to represent their states, but there are also deep seated ideological beliefs that are intrinsically linked to that symbol, namely that slavery was okay, and that certain people deserved to be ensalved b/c the color of their skin made them less than a person. and these are beliefs that people were willing to fight and die for.

to look at it from another perspective, using the confederate flag as a symbol for the south overlooks the fact that black people are as much a part of the history of the south as white people. and imo, it's hard to swallow the idea that something can (and should) serve as a symbol when it so blatantly disregards and ignores the role that a major segment of an area's population had in shaping and molding that history that it is supposed to "symbolize."

-- Edited by honey at 21:32, 2004-12-21

Ally S · Kate Spade

She knew exactly what she was doing when she made then wore that dress (can we say tasteless now?)

She knew she would be offensive and controversial and it was a stupid thing for her to do. Perhaps her right to self expression was hampered, but what about everybody else's rights.

Schools all have dress codes, even public schools. Would she be permitted to wear a shirt with an offensive logo on it to school? No, it would be outside the dress code.

Seems to me she had a sneaky suspicion this dress would get noticed, cause some trouble and give her the *perfect* reason to sue!

Hey, she's a senior in HS, maybe she needs college tuition money.

And Mia, let me applaud what you said, as usual you hit the nail right on the head especially about what that flag stands for.

Mia · Kate Spade

Eh...just re-read my post and wanted to clarify:

My "I'm personally not offended" just means that it isn't something I am familiar with. The Union Jack doesn't really affect me one way or another either. But do I think that displaying the Confederate flag is offensive? Yes. Do I think it represents a place/time when slavery was practiced and approved of? Yes. Do I think that people who don't see this are kind of practicing a kind of wilfully selective view of history? Yes.

Sorry, on re-reading my post sounded kind of assy. I didn't mean to imply that people who took offense were just "sensitive". Not at all.

Ally S - Yeah, the school thing is really the issue here. No matter what your feelings on the flag itself are, the school has a right to ask you to wear/not wear certain articles of clothing. I hope her frivolous lawsuit gets tossed out, pronto.

cc · Marc Jacobs

mia is so freakin articulate in all the american socio-politican debates, it's sick. and she's canadian!

Mia · Kate Spade

Oh man, no, I'm just a political nerd. I am interested in this stuff so I read about it. That's all.

jen · Kate Spade

Say there was a symbol for slavery just as the swastika served as a symbol for the germans killing the poles and jews. Wearing a dress with that symbol (for slavery) would be bad. Wearing the flag, to me, is not. And yes, slavery did occur in the south while that flag was flown. My family was also imprisioned in war camps in Germany as the german flag was raised. I do not protest the german flag though.

dixiegirl · BCBG

it's flown EVERYWHERE around here...my old school even used to fly it under the American flag. my guess is she wasn't trying to be racist at all, everyone around here sees it as a symbol of southern heritage (i could care less about it) & i'm pretty sure it's the same way in Ky. i think the school went way overboard in not allowing her to attend her prom. the only way i think they could ban her is if they banned people during the school year for wearing tshirts or clothing with the flag on it & she knew it wasn't allowed

honey · Gucci

quote:
Originally posted by: jen
"Say there was a symbol for slavery just as the swastika served as a symbol for the germans killing the poles and jews. Wearing a dress with that symbol (for slavery) would be bad. Wearing the flag, to me, is not. And yes, slavery did occur in the south while that flag was flown. My family was also imprisioned in war camps in Germany as the german flag was raised. I do not protest the german flag though."

your missing my point. i'm not protesting the confederate flag or her "right" in the broad sense of the word, to wear/fly the flag. i'm actually not protesting anything. i just think it's ludicrous that someone would deliberately choose to wear something that is clearly controversial to a school function and then want to sue when she's not allowed to participate. it upsets me, not b/c i'm offended by the flag, but b/c i think it's an abuse of the legal system and a waste of my tax paying dollars since imo a precedent has clearly been established where schools limit the rights of students while school is in session in order to maintain order and prevent disruptions.

as far as your argument concerning the german flag, i think mia did an excellent job of addressing your argument. this article from wikipedia might also be of interest to you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Flag

it essentially covers the history of the german flag, and as you can see from the side bar while the nazis were in power the german flag was different from it's modern incarnation in that it included a swastiska, while today's german flag does not.