STYLETHREAD -- LET'S TALK SHOP!

Maddie · Coach

Betty Friedan dies...

halleybird · Hermes

So sad. I really respect her. It's amazing if you think about how different this country was 50 years ago!

blubirde · Chanel

halleybird wrote:

So sad. I really respect her. It's amazing if you think about how different this country was 50 years ago!

I don't know... I think some aspects of life are reverting. "She mustn't feel selfish and neurotic if she wants goals of her own, outside of husband and children." I think every woman still struggles with this today. Plus I think more and more women are choosing to stay home, disregarding themselves as whole people, and instead fall on traditional values to justify their decisions. (I'd like to add I'm not against stay-at-home moms, I'm just pointing out that more and more women are insisting on this lifestyle without the thought and practicality that should go into the decision.)

I'm sad she's gone.

kate · BCBG

blubirde, you make some interesting points. it is interesting to think about how much has changed in 50 years, and yet some things are "reverting" back to they way they were. it's strange having grown up being told by my parents that i could do whatever i wanted, etc, and then getting to an age where i am making very real choices about my career and family, and how the two can fit together. i am going into medicine and it is astonishing how many people there are out there who would call me selfish for wanting to both be a doctor and have children eventually.

has anyone else here read the book "flux" by peggy orenstein? i'd highly recommend it to anyone who is grappling with these issues. just a lot of profiles of different women and the different choices they've made regarding work and family, and how it plays out.

halleybird · Hermes

blubirde wrote:

halleybird wrote: So sad. I really respect her. It's amazing if you think about how different this country was 50 years ago! I don't know... I think some aspects of life are reverting. "She mustn't feel selfish and neurotic if she wants goals of her own, outside of husband and children." I think every woman still struggles with this today. Plus I think more and more women are choosing to stay home, disregarding themselves as whole people, and instead fall on traditional values to justify their decisions. (I'd like to add I'm not against stay-at-home moms, I'm just pointing out that more and more women are insisting on this lifestyle without the thought and practicality that should go into the decision.) I'm sad she's gone.

You're right, but there's a distinct difference here -- women are choosing. Personally, I am a little weirded out by that trend, too. There are a lot of teen girls at my school who want to be housewives (not stay-at-home-moms), which is something that was definitely not true when I was in high school.

However, what Friedan and the others wanted was choice. They wanted women to be able to freely choose their career, whether it's as a neurosurgeon or a housewife. And we definitely have come a long way there. In Friedan's youth, women who wanted a career (esp. one that was not traditionally "female") would have faced a much, much harder road.

I am not saying gender equality is no longer an issue. Men are still paid more than women, we still deal with all sorts of sexual harrassment and "good ol' boy" type discrimination, and it is still not easy to be a working mom, due to logistics and society's perceptions. But the world is quite different IMO.

scarlett · Marc Jacobs

I think the world is really different today too, due in large part to Friedan and others like her. But the operative difference is that women today can choose, as Halleybird points out.

I don't know if it's any easier for women today to make these choices. Unfortunately, like it or not we still have it harder than guys simply because we're the ones who give birth. That's not going to change, obviously. I guess everyone just has to figure out what's right for them and what they can afford to do.

Bluebirde, maybe I am misreading your comments above, but it sounded to me like you were saying women who decide to stay home are neglecting themselves as people outside of the identity of being a mom. I don't think that's true. Some are just electing to concentrate on their kids for a certain time period, and plan to return to the work force after the children are in school. Or maybe they can't find good childcare options in their areas. I have a few friends who are stay at home moms. I know they get lonely at times and really miss adult conversation during the day, but they also want to focus on their kids for the time being. Like many things, it's a compromise.

blubirde · Chanel

scarlett wrote:

Bluebirde, maybe I am misreading your comments above, but it sounded to me like you were saying women who decide to stay home are neglecting themselves as people outside of the identity of being a mom. I don't think that's true. Some are just electing to concentrate on their kids for a certain time period, and plan to return to the work force after the children are in school. Or maybe they can't find good childcare options in their areas. I have a few friends who are stay at home moms. I know they get lonely at times and really miss adult conversation during the day, but they also want to focus on their kids for the time being. Like many things, it's a compromise.

I do think a lot of women who stay home are neglecting themselves as people outside of their identity as a mom. That said, I don't think all women who choose to stay at home with their children, for a period of time, for the rest of their lives, whatever are neglecting themselves.

I think being a mother is a wonderful thing. I think providing a loving home and being there for your kid are also wonderful things. But here's the issue. It's not ALL there is for a woman in life. A woman's identity is not her ability to reproduce children. She certainly should have no more obligation to provide that loving home and good parenting skills than the father.

What I said above was that I think a lot of women don't put serious thought and perspective into their decisions to stay at home with their kids and what that means as a woman and for themselves as not just a woman but as a person. I certainly think there are many women in the world who have made that choice with their eyes wide open and with all the due thought that should go into a life decision like that.

But, to be perfectly honest, I think it's disturbing when so many women are choosing to stay home with their children without due consideration (without due consideration is the important point here) because I think women play an important role in society and we owe it to each other to keep ourselves out there, in the male world as much as possible.

So basically I have a TON of respect for stay-at-home mothers. It's a freaking hard job and I don't know if I'd be strong enough to do it. But it's an important decision not to be taken lightly. Taken lightly, that decision can delegitmize both stay-at-home mothers and women who choose to stay in the workplace.

I hope that makes more sense and that I'm not offending anyone because I know there are a lot of mommies on this board and I think they're all totally awesome.

scarlett · Marc Jacobs

Thanks, Blubirde, I think I understand your opinion better now. I totally agree that women have more to offer than our ability to reproduce, and the onus for childcare shouldn't fall only on the mother's shoulders. It seems to me that that is changing, or at least it is in my personal experience. Most women I know with children are still working, and the few who decided to stay home did so with a lot of thought and consideration. Maybe it's because I'm in New York and people tend to have kids later in life, and also tend to be here for career reasons. But what I love about feminism, and people like Betty Friedan, is that our scope of choice is so much wider now and we can raise our kids, if we choose to have them, in the way we decide is best. We owe a lot to these pioneers.