STYLETHREAD -- LET'S TALK SHOP!

Mia · Kate Spade

So, uh, short of physical violence...

Deuce · Dooney & Bourke

Though I dont know the exact situation here and I do not know about the relationship, from what you described I would consider you other options. I think you are to great to put up with any sort of abuse, physical or otherwise. Just cause he is having a bad day does not make it ok. One or two times (ever) maybe but fairly regularly, life is way too short. If he does not care about you or himself enough to act like a "man" he doesnt deserve you. Easier said than done, but do you want to live the rest of your life that way. I always put it like this, is this a behavior that you would be ok with your best friend or daughter putting up with, if not, you have to do someting about it, and not wait around for him. Hope things get better for you.((((hugs))))

small fry · Chanel

Well I may be to blunt but maybe he needs a wake up call and for you to leave and go stay with a friend or family member. Is this your husband or boyfriend? I dont mean to be to nosy but what excctly does he do ? I have been in a similar situation and i know it is hard to deal with. Pm me if you need to, because you dont deseve this and Iam getting all worked up just thinking @ it

-- Edited by kaykay at 01:05, 2005-12-14

Mia · Kate Spade

Aw, thanks kaykay. Please don't get worked up about it on my behalf - trust me, I am worked up enough for 10 people!

He has never been physically abusive, btw...the subject line was meant to give the idea that *I* am starting to feel like physically abusing him (I do feel that way, but I won't be doing it, don't worry).

He's a theatre director and is currently involved in 3 different shows as well as being scheduled to go to Australia on Boxing Day for 10 days to direct a show in Sydney. So not only is he working long hours, he's working late hours. Also, he lives in London. I live on the west coast of Canada. He wants me to move to London (kind of a big deal so no concrete plans there yet) but in the meantime it's not like we hang out on a daily basis.

The problem here is, I love him. No, I would not want a friend or relative in my position and I know the advice I would give would be along the lines of "get a grip and lay down the law - he stops with the BS or you leave." I have been trying to give myself that advice. I have attempted to lay down the law a number of times. Each time he apologizes and begs forgiveness and goes off on fulsome arias about how patient and wonderful I am. And then he does it again a few days later. I want to know how to get him to stop doing it. To understand how much it hurts me, even if he doesn't think it should.

Eh. I shouldn't be posting right now. I just spoke to him for the 10 mins he had between waking up and leaving for work, and of course he was too rushed and distracted to really give me anything. So, yeah. I always thought love would be 100% good but actually, it kind of sucks, too.

atlgirl · Gucci

Oh Mia, I'm sorry that you're hurting.

I'm afraid I don't have any good suggestions. My DH and I are in counseling right now, (not for the issue you've posted, but for communication issues that we just can't seem to resolve on our own) and it's helped, but I don't know if counseling will help you with the whole ocean between you two! What's been good about it, for us, is that the counselor has been able to giv DH a *logical* reason for why I feel the way I do. So even if it's not intuitively logical for him, he can start to understand why some things, some behaviors of his, affect me the way they do. Then it's his choice whether or not to moderate or eliminate those behaviors. We have a long way to go before we get things resolved, or at least managed, but I am encouraged by the sessions.

I have attempted to lay down the law a number of times. Each time he apologizes and begs forgiveness and goes off on fulsome arias about how patient and wonderful I am. And then he does it again a few days later.

This is a classic abuse pattern, unfortunately. It does sound like, with the "low blows" and such, that he may be verbally abusive. And the "only provocation" being that he's tired? Seriously...it sounds like he's an emotional abuser and that can really hurt you.

I dated someone like this, for about 8 months, and he was very, very detrimental to my self-esteem. It took me *years* to recover from it, so please, please don't let yourself get beaten down by how he speaks to you. I would think very seriously about moving to be with him. Your posts here have always shown you to be very intelligent, fun, and kind. I don't want you to start doubting any aspect of yourself because of his behavior.

Love, like anything else, is never 100% wonderful. Everything has its ups and downs, but just be careful that you're not getting more pain than joy out of the relationship. *hugs*

blubirde · Chanel

Maybe when he's not so rushed and has some time to talk about it, you could tell him how serious it is (i.e., you're thinking it's a make it or break it thing) and y'all can come up with a code word, like "too far" or "chicken" or something when he's about to go into the make it or break it area.

That may be a silly idea and you may have already tried it but I know sometimes it's easier to see how things need to change when you've put it all out on the table like that. If you tell him you'll have to leave if things don't change and he continues his bad behavior then, whether he's conscious of it or not, he made his decision too.

Good luck!

nicoley · Coach

You said he was from London.. So Im guessing he is english? Im not kidding you, This must be an english thing, because the situation you described was exactly what would happen with my english boyfriend at the time and me everytime we fought. And he also wanted me to move to england, but I told him straight out that I wasn't moving anywhere until I knew for sure where my career was going etc... Basically I wanted to look after me first, im only 23 now, and I wanted to take care of my education etc, before uprooting my life. So he kind of knew where I stood right away. But in my opinion, moving to england should be something you want to do, regardless if you two are together or not, because that is a major move and if something goes wrong, and you have to move back, alot of changes would have occurred. Also, My other bit of advice would be to have a serious talk with him when both of you aren't angry, about what is going on, you two should get this situation figured out as quickly as possible or it will only continue to get worse. and more importantly, make you feel worse...

I hope that helps!

blink · Coach

My husband is like this. I don't have any advice but I know it really sucks. You can't just be a doormat, but you get bit in the ass if you stand up for yourself too. That's what happens when someone doesn't fight fair. I have tried to explain and find literature about verbal abuse for him, and that has helped him at least acknowledge it more. Other than a spiritual awakening or a trip to India, I don't know what would possibly change him. These days, since we have a baby and I don't want him around someone being hateful, I try to leave the premises for a while and let the blood pressure go down a little.

NCshopper · Hermes

Mia wrote:

I have attempted to lay down the law a number of times. Each time he apologizes and begs forgiveness and goes off on fulsome arias about how patient and wonderful I am. And then he does it again a few days later.

For me, this is the most troubling aspect of everything you wrote. It seems to have the classic descriptions of abuse written all over it.

You said yourself that if a friend was in this situtation you'd tell her to lay down the law and give an ultimatum. I think you know that's what you're going to have to do. Counseling seems like the only other option, but the distance makes that impractical.

I'd give some serious thought as to whether or not you want to continue this relationship. I know you say you love him, but is it possible that you're not in love with him, and you're just afraid of having to start over with someone new? Or that you feel like you need him? It can be pretty easy to confuse love with a lot of other emotions.

I guess what I'm saying is that you should really think about this relationship. I think you also need to lay down an ultimatum, but it will only work if you're going to keep up your end of the bargain and leave if he can't agree to it or if his behavior resurfaces.

scarlett · Marc Jacobs

Mia, I am so sorry you are hurting over this. It is even harder when you're dealing with so much distance between the two of you.

I have talked on here before about a verbally abusive relationship I was in during college; you may have seen that, but if not, I was with him for almost four years and transferred schools to be with him. He stalked me after I finally left him. Through the support of family and friends, and some therapy, I was able to get back to myself.

Atlgirl is right on the money when she says that the cycle you describe (him blowing up, apologising profusely, and blowing up again a few days later) is a classic mode of abuse. I am afraid that he will continue to do this for as long as you are with him. If it's not his work that's stressing him out and making him tired, then it will be something else. It's not the bad situation that's creating this problem, it's him.

If he wants to stay with you -- and more importantly, if you want to stay with him -- then he needs to address his problem through counseling. And I also think that as long as you stay with him while he continues to act this way without actively trying to change, then a part of him is going to see you as accepting his abusive behavior. And technically, by staying with him, you are accepting it. I am sorry to be so blunt, but I can deeply sympathise with what you are going through and I hate to imagine how you are feeling.

The hard truth is, you can't make him change. He has to want to change for any change to be true and lasting. My advice: either he gets counseling pronto and works actively and consistently on changing, or you're out of there. Like Deuce said, do you want to deal with this for the rest of your life? Unless he really sees consequences to his actions, i.e., that you will no longer accept this abuse, he has no impetus to change.

Good luck -- I'll be sending good thoughts your way.

JackieO527 · Dooney & Bourke

I don't know much about your relationship, however I do know that him taking low blows will only lead to other things. He seems to have a very hot temper if he goes off on you for having a shitty day. I was in a similar relationship, he would yell at me and I would take it because I thought I WAS IN LOVE WITH HIM!!! eventually the things he said to me only go worse then he started pushing me, then he started hitting my, the first time he hit me I left. I now know that i should have left him long before that. Trust me when I say there is a man out there that will respect you even when he has a LONG day. You deserve better and I know you probably think you love him, but you will only grow to hate him. I think you should leave him and find someone that will treat you like a woman and the way you deserve to be treated! I know it is hard to leave and yes it will hurt but you will be happier in the long run, b/c the shit he is doing will never end, even though he knows it hurts you, he will not be able to stop.

Dizzy · Marc Jacobs

He hears you, he loves you, and he hurts you anyway. Because he loves himself, or really fears losing control, more than he loves you. I'm sorry. I know this is almost impossible to hear.

You've said twice that everything will be fine if you can get him to stop doing this one thing that hurts you. The thing is, he's hurting you on purpose and you can't make him stop! How exactly do you think that's going to work? He's finally going to hear you for real this time? what does that say about all the other times? Do you think he just said he heard you, but lied? Or that he heard you, acknowledged it and did it again anyway? Neither scenario is good. And do you really want to be the one who decides what he can and can't do? Is that practical, logical, even desirable?

What is really going on here? You're knocking yourself out trying not to make him live with you as a grouch. And he's feelign more and more justified in hurting your feelings. Why do you have to work at being nice but he doesn't? What makes you the one who has to bear all the responsiblity? It's really hard to accept that not everyone is a good person. It's scary because it seems like there are no rules and that's too much risk to let yourself get out of bed. But it's the truth, and you get out of bed anyway. And get away from people like this, and don't engage them and don't expect them to be something they're not.

I've been there too. Exact same cycle. My friends all said 'You are so lucky he loves you so much and talks about you all the time..." But he WOULD NOT do what I asked, and had a million reasons in the world why he got to say whatever he wanted or drop responsibility whenever it suited him. And it just gets worse because this type of guy can't handle their own problems. They have one survival mechanism, to put it on you. He started drinking too much and I ended up with a protective order. In front of the judge, he used the same line your guy is running "She just got me so upset I've been having a really hard time lately..." tears. He had actual tears while he explained that he practically HAD to hurt me and was just drunk so it went too far, blah, blah, blah. The judge looked him right in the eye and said 'That's not going to cut it here." And I thought, "Why didn't I think of that?"

You might think we're all overreacting. But I can't live with myself if I didn't say something. Please don't show him this thread, or follow your first instinct in anything here. Please think to yourself "I am going to take care of myself and I won't let him hurt me. He will hurt me if I let him. I know this because he's done it before, over and over." And then act on that. Because accepting that you can protect yourself against people like this is so much more real, and makes you feel so much safer, than pretending they're not really that bad. Love you babe.

JoceyBaby23 · Gucci

Dizzy wrote:

Because accepting that you can protect yourself against people like this is so much more real, and makes you feel so much safer, than pretending they're not really that bad.

I love this line. It is very true.

small fry · Chanel

Mia I want you to get out of this relationship while you still can, I posted in the other post that joyce started been in a abusive realtionship and from experience mine told me he was sorry and he would not do it again but he always did (verbally) you dont deserve it and I want you to be happy

Mia · Kate Spade

I don't know what to say. I don't think any of you have been too harsh or said too much. I agree with basically everything that's been said, actually. It's nice to get some support that I'm not the one in the wrong for being "oversensitive" etc.

My husband is like this. I don't have any advice but I know it really sucks. You can't just be a doormat, but you get bit in the ass if you stand up for yourself too

This is exactly it. I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. If i say nothing, then I end up internalizing my hurt = Mia deals with the crap. If I say something, he gets angry at me for being hurt and we have a huge fight and he shouts and is horrible and it's awful = Mia still deals with the crap. How do you handle it? Do you fight a lot?

Dizzy, everything you said was right on. I'm kind of laughing at myself here thinking yeah, you know she's right, and you also know he's going to call you in the morning before work and you're not going to say anything. I am not going to ditch him today. I am going to think. But thank you for saying what you said.

I had also recognized the "abusive" pattern to the fights we have. Sometimes I get the feeling that he *wants* to have a fight with me, specifically so we can make-up afterwards. Does that make any sense? It's like the worse the fight is, the sweeter the making up is or something, like it's some kind of reassuring-himself-process going on. Look what I can say to her and she loves me so much she forgives me for it etc. Sometimes I think that's a little bit of what is going on. I told him that a few weeks ago, that it was starting to feel "abusive" and what did he do? Well, now everytime we have a fight he rolls out that word himself - "this is an abusive relationship, I won't stand for you abusing me" etc. Ugh. What is with that co-opting thing as well? Where you say you feel something and then suddenly they're all about feeling the exact same thing? Like, Mia is hurt, no, ------ is hurt MORE! Anyone know what I am talking about?

Thanks for all the posts and support. Seriously. I was feeling kind of at the end of my rope this past week. The worst part is, he is 20 years older than me and I still feel like I am more mature than he is in many ways.

And I won't be showing him this thread - I won't even tell him the URL of this site when he asks.

OK. I need to think. And I need to find some courage somewhere.

Mia · Chanel

Mia the courage is there you just have to dig deep to find it because he has took it away from you, you are stronger than he is. I believe in you- show him that he has not defeated you and you are the winner

blubirde · Chanel

Mia wrote:

Ugh. What is with that co-opting thing as well? Where you say you feel something and then suddenly they're all about feeling the exact same thing? Like, Mia is hurt, no, ------ is hurt MORE! Anyone know what I am talking about?

I COMPLETELY know what you're talking about. My ex was just like this. I couldn't have a legitimate feeling in our relationship. If I was hurt, think how hurt he was and how could I hurt him in those ways? Even saying I was hurt hurt him more than I could feel. If I caught him eyeing another girl, my jealousy and paranoia was killing our relationship. Grrr. I get irritated thinking about it.

I wish I had the balls to stand up to him then. He deserved a swift kick in the balls and I deserved to be free of him much sooner than I actually was. It sounds like this might be something you'll say one day.

-- Edited by blubirde at 00:14, 2005-12-15

atlgirl · Gucci

And I need to find some courage somewhere

Nah - you already have it within yourself. You just have to decide when you're ready to use it. And we've all got your back. It's not easy but you are too strong and smart to be kept down. You deserve someone who isn't going to pull this bullsh*t with you.

Kiz · Nine West

Mia wrote:

I told him that a few weeks ago, that it was starting to feel "abusive" and what did he do? Well, now everytime we have a fight he rolls out that word himself - "this is an abusive relationship, I won't stand for you abusing me" etc. Ugh.

the guy I was with would do this type of thing to me. every time I wanted to talk about things I was feeling, I learned to tell myself "anything you say WILL be used against you" because it always was. everything I ever said regarding how I felt, whether it was an observation, personal feelings, things that happened in my past, even compliments toward him, were all twisted and used against me. I learned to speak very little, because I always reminded myself "anything I say WILL be used against me" he was very successful in breaking my spirit. don't end up like I did.

good for you in recognizing that it's an abusive relationship - but don't let him twist it and use it against you. this whole thing with picking a fight (to build himself up, and beat you down) then the make-up afterward (validation) sounds pretty disfunctional to me... just be careful, mia...

Dizzy · Marc Jacobs

You don't have to ditch him today. You've already done the hard part by letting yourself picture the world without his distorting lens. You're being incredibly brave and gracious - I was so afraid you'd think we were all out of line and stop posting or something! You're doing great. And you don't have to do anything immediately at all. I'll bet the things he says will start to seem kind of funny because they're so obviously not true, and gradually you'll kind of start to build this inner world that he can't see, because he thinks you're still buying his bullshit, and then it will kind of click and eventually you'll walk. But it doesn't have to be right away. Love you sweetie. Take care of yourself.