STYLETHREAD -- LET'S TALK SHOP!

dc · Dooney & Bourke

President calls for a national day of prayer

valenciana · Dooney & Bourke

i'm sort of semi part-time religious, but this sort of thing gives me the willies.

dc, you and my husband (yikes, still weird to say!) could go on for hours about establishment of religion and atheism, etc....better not get you guys together ;)

ILoveChoo · Hermes

are you f'ing kidding me? has the man ever read the constitution? I am actually a fairly religous person, but this makes me so mad. I can't even process it...I want to scream!

blubirde · Chanel

That shit pisses me off royally. These are the kind of things that make me dislike Bush so much.

Why not a moment of silence? A day of remembrance? Why does it have to revolve around one particular religion at all? Especially considering he's the leader of the government and all... Geez. I wonder if there's a special place in hell for people who use religion for personal gain? If there is a hell that is...

NCshopper · Hermes

My heart gets racing about this kind of thing. I am somewhat religious, and this thing gets me fired up. I agree w/ blubirde--why can't this be a day of remembrance or a moment of silence? What about SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE?!?!?!?! DID BUSH MISS THAT DAY IN SCHOOL?!?!?!?!?! Helloooooooooooooo?

I really wish that there were more good things going on in our country right now. I feel like with the war, the hurricane, the crappy economy, high gas prices, etc, etc, etc, there's a whole lot to complain about and there's really not much going on on a national/big-picture level that our country is really excited or happy about. I feel like it's all doom and gloom lately. Can't there be anything good going on?

esquiress · Marc Jacobs

ok...i'm going to have to disagree w/ you all here. i really do think it's a nice thing to do. and i am also so sorry if that offends because that would never be my intention in participating in a national day of prayer. i understand that people who do not pray may feel excluded. it's just that in times like this, when there is just so much suffering, it feels really good to pray. and it feels really good to pray together. praying together gives me a feeling of peace and unity and helps me feel less alone. there's just so much comfort in it. and i want that comfort. i need that comfort.

as for the tie-in to God and America--it's always existed. the separation of church and state the way i learned it (and i certainly could be wrong) is in reference to a state-funded church, like the church of england for example. but as for references to God--God is referred to in the U.S. Constitution, and in the Articles of Confederation before that. He's referred to in our money too, though I think that is a more recent development. I guess my point is that God and America were linked together long before Bush came into office.

Now do I think Bush is "using" religion for his own selfish purposes? I don't know. I certainly hope not. But even if he is--the power of prayer isn't diluted because of it.

I'm sorry if what I've posted has offended anyone, I just wanted to share a different perspective. And for the record, I never voted for Bush and I'm not Christian (Muslim, actually).

Claudia · Gucci

I totally agree with esquiress...

theotherjess · Chanel

I don't think that a time of prayer is a bad thing at all, but in this case, I think the terminology that should have been used is "moment of silence," like blubirde suggested. It's more universal and those that want to pray can pray, and everyone else can just take a moment to remember the victims.

Maddie · Coach

I agree with esquiress and I'm agnostic. I think it doesn't affect me, I will just choose not to pray. But for those who are religious it can be a very positive thing. I don't think Bush is saying that it is "the American thing to do." Or if he is, it really doesn't make me feel less American, because I know that's not the case and he's an idiot.

sephorablue · Marc Jacobs

I am also an atheist, so I do think this is completely offensive, but the thing is, I also think we have to accept the fact that the line between church and state has eroded and it is, for the time being, out of our control. I hate it, I think it's wrong, I think it's against the founding principles of the country, but it has greatly eroded. Not erod-ing, erod-ed. I said something similar in a post a while ago, but what it comes down to for me is majority rule. His entire administration has been kept afloat by a growing, ever more powerful wave of Christian right, and the fact is that they are the ones in control as of right now. "Moral values," or whatever the phrase was that all the reporters were using, is what put him in office for a second term. I'm not suggesting that those of us who oppose the idea of our country turning into the States of America United in God's Holy Love shouldn't struggle against the status quo, and shouldn't try to change it, but I guess what I'm saying is, you shouldn't be surprised. As disturbing as I find this, I'm incapable of summoning fresh outrage because I am so used to it by now, and even though I dislike it, it is NOT going to go away.

I mean, the fact that he didn't even pretend to concede to non-Christians by saying the more PC "day of remembrance" really shows how utterly arrogant and confident he is of receiving broad support for this. He stated that he saw his re-election as a mandate from the American people, and that "mandate" means, among other things, a lot more Jesus coming at us from the government. So you've got Christian theology (cleverly disguised as "intelligent design"--no one will ever figure out what it is!) being taught in public school science classes, you've got the governor of Florida threatening to seize Theresa Schiavo by force to prevent the removal of her feeding tube, and you've got the president instructing the nation to pray for God's guidance in the aftermath of a terrible national disaster. That's your mandate for you. He's not doing this stuff to pursue some crazed autocratic vision of a Christian state--a majority of the country voted and said that they want more of this and he is responding to that.

Hopefully things will change once we get someone new into office, but for the next three years this is the way it's going to be.

And Esquiress, you make a very good point about the literal meaning of the church and state issue, but I do think that the original idea was to create a totally secular country where all religions would be tolerated, no one would be persecuted on the basis of their religion, and no one religion would be promulgated by the government. I think the first two are still true but the government is clearly promulgating a very specific value set. I wouldn't go so far as to say it is one specific religion, but it is a value set with a few prominent aspects that those of us who live secular lives find extremely troubling.

dc · Dooney & Bourke

I just don't buy this whole line about how Christianity has always been tied to our nationality, blah blah blah so this should be okay. Also, I have to correct a few points.

"In God We Trust" appeared on our currency only as a response to communist atheism in the 1950s. Ditto the "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance.

There is no reference in the constitution to God or Jesus except in the dating conventions "Year of our Lord," etc. - in fact, people at the time scorned the constitution as "Godless." The constitution goes to pains NOT to sanction religion. The first amendment prohibits the establishment and promotion of religion, and declaring a given day a "day of prayer" reeks of state sanctioning of religion to me. In his quote, W basically assumes christianity as our national religion. It is not, and every attempt to make it so has failed, including in the constitution as mentioned above.

This whole "we're a christian nation" thing is a myth. No matter what the religion of our fathers, the state which they created was secular - on purpose. While there may be cultural aspects of Christianity, obviously we are not LEGALLY a "Christian nation," and I take exception - as an American - to accepting the US a de facto Christian nation as well. I may be in the minority, but if the rights of the minority are not protected then nobody's rights are. You might not think this affects you, but it does - yes, it's nice for people to pray (like I said.. did they need his permission? No - that's where it rings false), but when this day is declared at the EXCLUSION of much of the population on religious grounds, it is wrong.

While religion and Amercanism has been linked in different ways throughout history, Bush takes it to new heights and this is a particularly egregious example. Look, he has a base to pander to. He's also a born-again. But it is as wrong for a government to ENCOURAGE prayer as it is to DISCOURAGE prayer. His gesture is exclusive and loaded with value judgments. Think about that.

-- Edited by dc at 22:15, 2005-09-08

gruiz · Kenneth Cole

I think it's hard for people who ARE religious (in any way) to understand how excluded we non-religious folk feel. I don't like the way he has worded his statement, as if being an American means that you pray. So, if I don't pray for the victims, am I a bad American? To be honest, I'm surprised Bush's "people" let him do something like this.

I know in this case he's meaning well, but dammit he pisses me off. I do think of those poor people... everyday...I'll help where and when I can, but I will not pray for them. As harsh as that statement sounds to religious people, that's how strange and foreign Bush's statement came across to me.

kenzie · Chanel

dc wrote:

I just don't buy this whole line about how Christianity has always been tied to our nationality, blah blah blah so this should be okay. Also, I have to correct a few points. "In God We Trust" appeared on our currency only as a response to communist atheism in the 1950s. Ditto the "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance. There is no reference in the constitution to God or Jesus except in the dating conventions "Year of our Lord," etc. - in fact, people at the time scorned the constitution as "Godless." The constitution goes to pains NOT to sanction religion. The first amendment prohibits the establishment and promotion of religion, and declaring a given day a "day of prayer" reeks of state sanctioning of religion to me. In his quote, W basically assumes christianity as our national religion. It is not, and every attempt to make it so has failed, including in the constitution as mentioned above. This whole "we're a christian nation" thing is a myth. No matter what the religion of our fathers, the state which they created was secular - on purpose. While there may be cultural aspects of Christianity, obviously we are not LEGALLY a "Christian nation," and I take exception - as an American - to accepting the US a de facto Christian nation as well. I may be in the minority, but if the rights of the minority are not protected then nobody's rights are. You might not think this affects you, but it does - yes, it's nice for people to pray (like I said.. did they need his permission? No - that's where it rings false), but when this day is declared at the EXCLUSION of much of the population on religious grounds, it is wrong. While religion and Amercanism has been linked in different ways throughout history, Bush takes it to new heights and this is a particularly egregious example. Look, he has a base to pander to. He's also a born-again. But it is as wrong for a government to ENCOURAGE prayer as it is to DISCOURAGE prayer. His gesture is exclusive and loaded with value judgments. Think about that. -- Edited by dc at 22:15, 2005-09-08

I am fairly religious, but I agree on most of your points, dc. Imposing religion of any kind on any individual or group is not the soundest of judgements. While, I'm not offended personally by Bush's declaration, I can see how someone without the same beliefs would be. What is offensive to me is the forced religion. I don't want an atheist to try to force their beliefs on me, so I wouldn't expect it to be okay the other way around.

However, as esquiress said, praying together offers unity and peace, which is fine for those in the Christian/believing in God camp. However, it excludes a large portion (while they may be the minority, they still exist) of Americans. It does seem to imply that to not believe in God makes one less American, which it shouldn't.

Hermes

dc wrote:

This is so offensive. People who are Christian may or may not be able to understand how this makes a non-religious person feel, and it mgiht seem liek a "nice thing to do," but it brings to mind the days after 9/11 when I sort of felt like "less of an American" when reminded of my minority status as an atheist by the CONSTANT tie-in of God to our Americanness. But never mind how I personally feel - this is state sanctioning of religion if I have ever heard it and I am sick and tired of it. Now, you can dress it up and say it's a day of "remembrance," but he's the one throwing the big "Him" in there, which is really what this is all about. And can't people just pray on their own? People who really believe in God have been at it already and didn't need your permission, W. Why make it a national thing? THAT is really what's offensive. "National" and "prayer" really have no business in the same sentence. I know that sometimes people think they're being inclusive of all religions, but actually his statement rules out any religion that is not monotheistic and certainly rules out those of us who are non-religious. (But who cares, I suppose. We're going to rot in hell anyway, right?) Pardon my rant. I take this sort of persnoally, my beliefs being important to me and all. http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/08/katrina.bush/ "WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush promised survivors of Hurricane Katrina on Thursday that the federal government "is going to be with you for the long haul," and he called for a national day of prayer for the storm's victims." "I ask that we pray, as Americans have always prayed in times of trial, with confidence in His purpose, with hope for a brighter future and with the humility to ask God to keep us strong, so we can better serve our brothers and sisters in need," he said.

This is what bothers me most about him - especially the "god bless" after his speeches - makes me cringe.

Andrea Julia · Coach

I'm torn on this issue. On one hand, he has no right declaring a national day of prayer in a country where church and state are separated and not everyone is even a Christian. I just think it is presumptuous for him to think because he wants to have a day of prayer, that everyone else will.

On the other hand, I am against people changing things to make them more PC (some things that come to mind are taking down the nativity scene or a statue of the ten commandments lest it offend someone or spending loads of time trying to think of the right word for those who were living in New Orleans). If President Bush wants a day of prayer, why should he have to say a day of remembrance or a moment of silence when he really means a day of prayer?

I think the best thing he could have said would have been, "My family and I invite you to join us in prayer tomorrow." He has no right to sanction a national day of prayer, but I would really have no problem with him saying on a personal level, "hey, I plan on praying and if you plan on praying, too, we can unite and pray together."

Feel free to disagree with anything I'm saying because even as I wrote this, I started thinking, "Well, he should have called a national day of remembrance as well just for the sake of showing our solidarity for New Orleans."

blubirde · Chanel

I heard him on CNN last night (after I'd already read about here and posted) and it bothered me even more. I can't remember everything he said but it was something like: go to your places of worship and pray with me...

I don't have a place of worship. I don't pray. I'm not sad about these things, but I am sad about "my" president ignoring me and leading the whole country in a recognition of the plight of the people on the Gulf Coast that I can't be a part of. I'd feel so much more included if it were a "day of remembrance" or a "moment of silence."

I know it doesn't really matter and I have such little respect left for Bush that it especially doesn't matter what he thinks but still. Once again, he's just proven to me that his is the only way to go and if we don't jump on the band wagon, we're not only not invited, but we're labeled godless, liberal, un-Americans. It's very frustrating.

Mandy · Kate Spade

Unfortunately, like Sephorablue said, I'm not surprised by this. I too would consider myself and atheist and it is very difficult for those more religious to understand how many times I encounter things that make me feel uncomfortable because of references to God and whatnot. I was raised in the church but came to a realization in college that I didn't believe in God, all of a sudden my perspective changed and I felt like I didn't fit into our extremely Christian society.

I'm fine if people want to make reference to their religion and what they do, but I'm offended when there is an implication that I should do the same. I wouldn't care if Bush said I'm going to pray for the victims, but there is no need to make it a "national" day of prayer. It makes me feel like I'm doing something wrong or not being supportive if I don't participate. I think a national day of rememberance would be much better phrasing and much more inclusive.

While I think that sometimes our country goes overboard to be PC like AJ suggested, but I do think that the 10 commandments have no place in courthouses. I live in the south and it really bothers me that we can't buy alcohol on Sunday. Why not? I don't go to church, its not my holy day. Now, I'm not a raging alcoholic or anything, I can go without drinking that day, but I think I should be able to go to the store and buy a bottle of wine any day of the week. Why is Sunday special? I have lots of Jewish friends, Saturday is their Sabbath, but I have never heard them complain about Christians boozing it up on their day.

kenzie · Chanel

Mandy wrote:

I live in the south and it really bothers me that we can't buy alcohol on Sunday. Why not? I don't go to church, its not my holy day. Now, I'm not a raging alcoholic or anything, I can go without drinking that day, but I think I should be able to go to the store and buy a bottle of wine any day of the week. Why is Sunday special? I have lots of Jewish friends, Saturday is their Sabbath, but I have never heard them complain about Christians boozing it up on their day.

We can't buy alcohol from stores in PA on Sunday's either (with the exception of a few wine and liquor stores that are open, but they are far and few between). I remember when I was a kid, nothing was open on Sunday's- no stores, not the mall, nothing. We spent Sunday just relaxing and being with family and friends.

But since American life has picked up at warp speed, everything is now open on Sunday's b/c half of this workaholic country only has time to shop and run errands on Sunday's. Even now, though, I really try not to do anything on Sunday's. I try to get it all done during the week or on Saturday. I really like to be able to relax before the crazy week starts all over again. When I worked in retail, I used to get so mad when I had to work on Sunday b/c it's just a sign of our shopaholic, workaholic, don't-take-a-vacation-or-you'll-get-fired society, which is a personal soapbox of mine. For me, things being closed on Sunday represents a simpler time when life wasn't so crazy and people didn't work themselves into early graves. It's not necessarily about religion, but rather, setting aside a day for your family and friends and just taking time to sit back and enjoy life. But that's just me.

*end rant*

**end thread hijack**

-- Edited by NylaBelle at 14:04, 2005-09-09

sephorablue · Marc Jacobs

It's interesting too, because this situation represents a dichotomy which is one of the primary reasons why I have never believed and could never believe in God. It is an obvious impulse after an event such as this to think about it, dwell on it, try to come to terms with it, and to feel with deep compassion the suffering of other people, to hope for their safety and comfort, and to mourn for the dead. This is why I agree with all of you who said that Bush's impulse was from the right place--I totally agree. That core impulse, whether you call it praying or meditating or thinking or whatever, really has nothing to do with religion at all, but is a pure expression of human compassion. But the thing that always gives me trouble is where he mentions the "confidence in His purpose." I understand the impulse to search for meaning, reason, or purpose in a tragedy, because the belief that the tragedy is part of some greater scheme, or was necessary for some unknown reason, must be very comforting. If you believe that all that suffering and pain and death was somehow necessary or planned by an almighty, all-knowing, all-loving Parent whose reasons cannot be guessed or understood, a Parent whose wisdom is absolute and who, though it might not look like it, is unquestionably making the right call, then I can imagine it feels a lot less terrible. But I just don't understand--and this is NOT meant to belittle anyone, I am actually saying that I literally do not understand, without judging those who feel this way--how it is possible to believe that suffering does occur for a purpose. That it is controlled, or planned. That there is some power behind it which has the ability to select people either for happiness and safety or for suffering and death.

I better cut myself off, because I am in danger of launching into a major one-woman theological debate. I just think it is interesting how we each find different ways of coming to terms with events like these, in particular, and with life in general. I, in my way, actually derive much more comfort from the belief that everything is random, chance, without a purpose and without a plan. Somehow I find it easier to accept that there is no reason for anything than to believe that there is a purpose, and a will, which causes terrible things happen to good people.

poptart · Coach

Everything that comes out of Bush's mouth is cringe-worthy. Was he raised under a ROCK? (Oh, wait, he was raised by Barbara - see the other post.)

My two cents: As the leader of a diverse nation, I feel that Bush has an obligation to speak in a way that is respectful, to the extent possible, of the diverse beliefs of all Americans. In my mind, this would mean speaking about either a moment of silence or a remembrance consistent with people's individual beliefs. He has excellent speechwriters; I'm sure they could have figured out something inclusive. And *that* is ultimately what bothers me. They/He didn't bother to try to include everyone because, as many of you have said, pandering to the religous right is what got him elected. And he's done nothing but continue to push the interests of the right - beyond what I think is fair or justifiable - in every arena of his domestic and foreign policy. And just as disgusting to me is the fact that he has managed to make Christians look like boorish, unthinking, a**holes at the same time. As a Christian, I am deeply offended by what I have seen of his behavior, his actions, and his words. As an American, I'm ashamed that "we" elected him.