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Post Info TOPIC: Terri Schiavo - different perspective


BCBG

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Terri Schiavo - different perspective
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Not Dead at All
Why Congress was right to stick up for Terri Schiavo.
By Harriet McBryde Johnson


The Terri Schiavo case is hard to write about, hard to think about. Those films are hard to look at. I see that face, maybe smiling, maybe not, and I am reminded of a young woman I knew as a child, lying on a couch, brain-damaged, apparently unresponsive, and deeply beloved—freakishly perhaps but genuinely so—living proof of one family's no-matter-what commitment. I watch nourishment flowing into a slim tube that runs through a neat, round, surgically created orifice in Ms. Schiavo's abdomen, and I'm almost envious. What effortless intake! Due to a congenital neuromuscular disease, I am having trouble swallowing, and it's a constant struggle to get by mouth the calories my skinny body needs. For whatever reason, I'm still trying, but I know a tube is in my future. So, possibly, is speechlessness. That's a scary thought. If I couldn't speak for myself, would I want to die? If I become uncommunicative, a passive object of other people's care, should I hope my brain goes soft and leaves me in peace?

My emotional response is powerful, but at bottom it's not important. It's no more important than anyone else's, not what matters. The things that ought to matter have become obscured in our communal clash of gut reactions. Here are 10 of them:

1. Ms. Schiavo is not terminally ill. She has lived in her current condition for 15 years. This is not about end-of-life decision-making. The question is whether she should be killed by starvation and dehydration.

2. Ms. Schiavo is not dependent on life support. Her lungs, kidneys, heart, and digestive systems work fine. Just as she uses a wheelchair for mobility, she uses a tube for eating and drinking. Feeding Ms. Schiavo is not difficult, painful, or in any way heroic. Feeding tubes are a very simple piece of adaptive equipment, and the fact that Ms. Schiavo eats through a tube should have nothing to do with whether she should live or die.

3. This is not a case about a patient's right to refuse treatment. I don't see eating and drinking as "treatment," but even if they are, everyone agrees that Ms. Schiavo is presently incapable of articulating a decision to refuse treatment. The question is who should make the decision for her, and whether that substitute decision-maker should be authorized to kill her by starvation and dehydration.

4. There is a genuine dispute as to Ms. Schiavo's awareness and consciousness. But if we assume that those who would authorize her death are correct, Ms. Schiavo is completely unaware of her situation and therefore incapable of suffering physically or emotionally. Her death thus can't be justified for relieving her suffering.

5. There is a genuine dispute as to what Ms. Schiavo believed and expressed about life with severe disability before she herself became incapacitated; certainly, she never stated her preferences in an advance directive like a living will. If we assume that Ms. Schiavo is aware and conscious, it is possible that, like most people who live with severe disability for as long as she has, she has abandoned her preconceived fears of the life she is now living. We have no idea whether she wishes to be bound by things she might have said when she was living a very different life. If we assume she is unaware and unconscious, we can't justify her death as her preference. She has no preference.

6. Ms. Schiavo, like all people, incapacitated or not, has a federal constitutional right not to be deprived of her life without due process of law.

7. In addition to the rights all people enjoy, Ms. Schiavo has a statutory right under the Americans With Disabilities Act not to be treated differently because of her disability. Obviously, Florida law would not allow a husband to kill a nondisabled wife by starvation and dehydration; killing is not ordinarily considered a private family concern or a matter of choice. It is Ms. Schiavo's disability that makes her killing different in the eyes of the Florida courts. Because the state is overtly drawing lines based on disability, it has the burden under the ADA of justifying those lines.

8. In other contexts, federal courts are available to make sure state courts respect federally protected rights. This review is critical not only to the parties directly involved, but to the integrity of our legal system. Although review will very often be a futile last-ditch effort—as with most death-penalty habeas petitions—federalism requires that the federal government, not the states, have the last word. When the issue is the scope of a guardian's authority, it is necessary to allow other people, in this case other family members, standing to file a legal challenge.

9. The whole society has a stake in making sure state courts are not tainted by prejudices, myths, and unfounded fears—like the unthinking horror in mainstream society that transforms feeding tubes into fetish objects, emblematic of broader, deeper fears of disability that sometimes slide from fear to disgust and from disgust to hatred. While we should not assume that disability prejudice tainted the Florida courts, we cannot reasonably assume that it did not.

10. Despite the unseemly Palm Sunday pontificating in Congress, the legislation enabling Ms. Schiavo's parents to sue did not take sides in the so-called culture wars. It did not dictate that Ms. Schiavo be fed. It simply created a procedure whereby the federal courts could decide whether Ms. Schiavo's federally protected rights have been violated.

In the Senate, a key supporter of a federal remedy was Iowa Sen. Tom Harkin, a progressive Democrat and longtime friend of labor and civil rights, including disability rights. Harkin told reporters, "There are a lot of people in the shadows, all over this country, who are incapacitated because of a disability, and many times there is no one to speak for them, and it is hard to determine what their wishes really are or were. So I think there ought to be a broader type of a proceeding that would apply to people in similar circumstances who are incapacitated."

I hope against hope that I will never be one of those people in the shadows, that I will always, one way or another, be able to make my wishes known. I hope that I will not outlive my usefulness or my capacity (at least occasionally) to amuse the people around me. But if it happens otherwise, I hope whoever is appointed to speak for me will be subject to legal constraints. Even if my guardian thinks I'd be better off dead—even if I think so myself—I hope to live and die in a world that recognizes that killing, even of people with the most severe disabilities, is a matter of more than private concern.

Clearly, Congress's Palm Sunday legislation was not the "broader type of proceeding" Harkin and I want. It does not define when and how federal court review will be available to all of those in the shadows, but rather provides a procedure for one case only. To create a general system of review, applicable whenever life-and-death decisions intersect with disability rights, will require a reasoned, informed debate unlike what we've had until now. It will take time. But in the Schiavo case, time is running out.

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Gucci

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The article certainly gives us more food for thought; I am more confused then ever.



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BCBG

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quote:
Originally posted by: Drew

"The article certainly gives us more food for thought; I am more confused then ever."


That's why I posted it. I thought it gave good arguments for the opposite side. I feel like all the media is siding with the husband, and it makes sense, but I think it's important to analyze the parent's concerns as well.

I don't know what to think either, but I think this article gives some powerful arguments to keep Terri Schiavo alive.

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Kate Spade

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The more I think about this the more I think that feeding tube should be reinserted. That article nicely outlines the reasons why. I think to me the most compelling thing is that there is no agreement on what her wishes were, and her husband cannot be said to be an impartial party. It is not the same as a terminally ill person making a decision about their own life - T. Schiavo is not making a decision, at least not one she can communicate to anyone. What's happening is other people are saying "her life is not worth living". I am all for individuals deciding when life may no longer be worth living *for them* but I am really, REALLY wary of making that decision for someone else.



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Dooney & Bourke

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i'm leaning this way, too.  i heard a very persuasive piece on the radio last night, and from the point-of-view of disabled-rights advocates, it seems like the only choice.  i think that the rights of the disabled are really an unexplored topic in our world and this is the first time it has really forcefully come up in a major way and made us think and talk about it--which i think is ultimately going to be a really good thing. 

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Gucci

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This is a very good article.. Thank you for sharing..


However, previously I have sided with her husband and this has not changed my mind. I know more people than not who would rather die than live her life for another 40 years. I don't know her and it's none of my business what she would "prefer". But I do feel her husband knows her best and should be able to make decisions for the both of them.



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Dooney & Bourke

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wow.  i was definitely siding with terry's husband, but this article has made me consider the other side more carefully.  if we consider terry "disabled" rather than "vegetative," it changes the whole argument in my opinion.  i really don't know where i stand on this issue anymore- it's SO SAD.

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Hermes

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The thing in this whole issue that I can't get past is all these people saying she shouldn't live like that the rest of her live and that they wouldn't want to live in that state and somehow this makes it ok to STARVE HER?!?


And another thing that bothers me is the husband living with another woman (and having children) for the last eight years and not divorcing his wife, hmmm, in my book that is an affair.  For better or worse anyone???  If it were my husband, he better pull that feeding tube, cause if I were to miraclously wake up and find him with another woman and kids, it'd be his ass on life support!



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Dooney & Bourke

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Thanks for posting this article.  The media is oftentimes very liberal but that's not the problem, the problem is they only tell THEIR arguments.  Great article!

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Coach

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quote:

Originally posted by: FashionPrincess

"The thing in this whole issue that I can't get past is all these people saying she shouldn't live like that the rest of her live and that they wouldn't want to live in that state and somehow this makes it ok to STARVE HER?!? "


Unfortunately, in a legal sense, it would be easier to get approval to starve her than to kill her some quick way.  That would be opening a whole new argument.  If they starve her, they can still say they are "letting her die" instead of "killing her" because the feeding tube is the only thing that sustains her.  She would be dead without it.  So, I think the choice will always be starve her or keep her alive. 


I really don't know what to say about this anymore.  She should have had a living will, but honestly, who am I to talk?  I don't have one either.  However, I was actually thinking about it and I don't think I would care one way or another what was done to me if I was in a persistent vegetative state.  If I didn't know what's going on, then what's the difference?  I would want it left up to my family:  would they rather have me alive and in a waking coma or would they rather not have the trouble of taking care of me? 



-- Edited by Andrea Julia at 22:27, 2005-03-23

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Coach

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I think they are digging kind of deep here.  It is almost irrelevant:


7. In addition to the rights all people enjoy, Ms. Schiavo has a statutory right under the Americans With Disabilities Act not to be treated differently because of her disability. Obviously, Florida law would not allow a husband to kill a nondisabled wife by starvation and dehydration; killing is not ordinarily considered a private family concern or a matter of choice. It is Ms. Schiavo's disability that makes her killing different in the eyes of the Florida courts. Because the state is overtly drawing lines based on disability, it has the burden under the ADA of justifying those lines.


Whatever.  Just keep her alive.  I don't care anymore.  I guess that there are really too many rights violated by letting her starve.  However, in my head, I think it is time to let go. 



-- Edited by Andrea Julia at 22:26, 2005-03-23

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Dooney & Bourke

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First of all, this is not a liberal or conservative issue. Well, it wasn't until conservatives made it that way by tying it to the abortion/right to life battle.

Moreover, let's not demonize the husband for attempting to live his life when it has been very clear that Terri is not coming back. A loving wife would want that if she died, and the woman who was his wife is long gone - but still he devotes time and effort on her behalf. It is not like he abandoned her. Anyway, attacking him (a la Tom delay, in possibly the most awful statement ever uttered about a private citizen who has broken no laws by an elected official) turns my stomach as much as criticizing the good intentions of the parents does. I hardly think that he wants her dead so that he can get a divorce, and he could not get a divorce and still remain her guardian, which he feels he owes her... he is in a catch-22.

This article is nothing new - these are many of the same things that people have been saying all along. Actually, I think it's overwrought nonsense in many of its arguments. It's just so biased with emotion that you almost can't help but be affected by it at first. Here is my point by point response (any medical facts I point to come from physician testimony) . I don't want to sound insensitive, because I think this is an awful and tragic situation. I am just angered by what has happened to this case politically.

********************************

1. Ms. Schiavo is not terminally ill. She has lived in her current condition for 15 years. This is not about end-of-life decision-making. The question is whether she should be killed by starvation and dehydration.

The word "killed" here is not exactly objective. Moreover, yes, she is terminal. Her heart attack would have killed her had her husband not found her. She is only being kept alive by outside means. Otherwise, the heart attack that caused her brain damage would have killed her.

2. Ms. Schiavo is not dependent on life support. Her lungs, kidneys, heart, and digestive systems work fine. Just as she uses a wheelchair for mobility, she uses a tube for eating and drinking. Feeding Ms. Schiavo is not difficult, painful, or in any way heroic. Feeding tubes are a very simple piece of adaptive equipment, and the fact that Ms. Schiavo eats through a tube should have nothing to do with whether she should live or die.

Her body does not work just fine. If she were fed through her mouth, she would aspirate her food into ehr lungs and die. She is being fed throguh a tube in her stomach, and like any other life-supporting device, this is the only thing keeping her alive. It is as much life support as any other device, and this is exactly the sort of thing that people mean when they refer to not wishing to be kept alive by outside means.

3. This is not a case about a patient's right to refuse treatment. I don't see eating and drinking as "treatment," but even if they are, everyone agrees that Ms. Schiavo is presently incapable of articulating a decision to refuse treatment. The question is who should make the decision for her, and whether that substitute decision-maker should be authorized to kill her by starvation and dehydration.

Again with the strong emotional language, this person clouds the legal argument. The legal battle is about the choice she articulated to her husband that she would not wish to be kept alive if she were in a vegetative state. Her husband is her legal guardian and it is his duty to ensure that her wishes as he perceived them are met. As stated before, having a feeding tube surgically inserted into one's stomach does, in fact, constitute medical treatment. This is not eating and drinking the way the author here wants to paint it - like sipping and munching. It is the clinical provision of nutrients - the same as if she were receiving some type of medicine intravenously. Her parents claim that being removed from such life support is not what she wanted - he claims it is. He is her legal guardian. The law is on his side.

4. There is a genuine dispute as to Ms. Schiavo's awareness and consciousness. But if we assume that those who would authorize her death are correct, Ms. Schiavo is completely unaware of her situation and therefore incapable of suffering physically or emotionally. Her death thus can't be justified for relieving her suffering.

Those who authorize her death - again, way to insert inflammatory language. Nobody is arguing in the court that letting her pass on - as she would have years ago (and that essentially, the person who was Terri Shiavo, did 15 years ago) - is justified because it releases her from suffering. The LEGAL argument has to do with her wish to live or die, and her husband's ability as her guardian to execute what he claims was her will, period.

5. There is a genuine dispute as to what Ms. Schiavo believed and expressed about life with severe disability before she herself became incapacitated; certainly, she never stated her preferences in an advance directive like a living will. If we assume that Ms. Schiavo is aware and conscious, it is possible that, like most people who live with severe disability for as long as she has, she has abandoned her preconceived fears of the life she is now living. We have no idea whether she wishes to be bound by things she might have said when she was living a very different life. If we assume she is unaware and unconscious, we can't justify her death as her preference. She has no preference.

This argument would then put into question EVERY living will - nobody knows how they will feel or if they will feel in the situation. The legal question is what she would have wanted when she was healthy and able to make decisions about her future welfare.

6. Ms. Schiavo, like all people, incapacitated or not, has a federal constitutional right not to be deprived of her life without due process of law.

Due process has been given - more than anyone in history. Certainly - and I'll soapbox a litle - she has had more due process than the infant recently taken off of life support in Texas because of legislation enacted by Bush when he was governer that allowed his treatment discontinued because his family could not pay for his treatment. But I digress.

7. In addition to the rights all people enjoy, Ms. Schiavo has a statutory right under the Americans With Disabilities Act not to be treated differently because of her disability. Obviously, Florida law would not allow a husband to kill a nondisabled wife by starvation and dehydration; killing is not ordinarily considered a private family concern or a matter of choice. It is Ms. Schiavo's disability that makes her killing different in the eyes of the Florida courts. Because the state is overtly drawing lines based on disability, it has the burden under the ADA of justifying those lines.

Terri Schiavo is more than disabled. Her cerebral cortex is liquid. Everything that made her Terri Schiavo is gone. And again, nobody is trying to "kill" her out of malice- they are simply arguing that she would not have wished to be kept alive in this condition. Even the means that have kept her alive to this point have done a disservice to the wishes she is alleged to have had.

8. In other contexts, federal courts are available to make sure state courts respect federally protected rights. This review is critical not only to the parties directly involved, but to the integrity of our legal system. Although review will very often be a futile last-ditch effort—as with most death-penalty habeas petitions—federalism requires that the federal government, not the states, have the last word. When the issue is the scope of a guardian's authority, it is necessary to allow other people, in this case other family members, standing to file a legal challenge.

Do not confuse federalism with what happened on Capitol Hill on Sunday, which amounted - in a nutshell - to elected officials putting up a roadblock to a state decision which they didn't like for ideological reasons. This is a dangerous precedent for any number of state cases and a hell of a pandora's box - you'll see this bandied about now as justification for opening up all sorts of state decisions, from gay marriage to state abortion laws. And don't think that they didn't know that.

9. The whole society has a stake in making sure state courts are not tainted by prejudices, myths, and unfounded fears—like the unthinking horror in mainstream society that transforms feeding tubes into fetish objects, emblematic of broader, deeper fears of disability that sometimes slide from fear to disgust and from disgust to hatred. While we should not assume that disability prejudice tainted the Florida courts, we cannot reasonably assume that it did not.

We also have a stake in making sure that our courts and government are not tainted by religious prejudices, myths, etc.... The florida courts - not exactly bastions of liberalism, either - were "prejudiced" only by legal arguments and medical evidence. It has been said time and time again that Schiavo's parents lacked a case and any evidence to support their claims of what she would have wanted and her medical condition as they perceive it through their glass of hope. It might seem cold and harsh, but science and law are the most objective things we have.

10. Despite the unseemly Palm Sunday pontificating in Congress, the legislation enabling Ms. Schiavo's parents to sue did not take sides in the so-called culture wars. It did not dictate that Ms. Schiavo be fed. It simply created a procedure whereby the federal courts could decide whether Ms. Schiavo's federally protected rights have been violated.

BULLSHIT! First of all, as soon as key phrases such as "compassion for life" were bandied about, there was a side taken in the "culture wars." What the legislation did was to sidestep the authority of the florida court - poo-pooing a decision that powerful people being lobbied by right-to-life groups didn't like. It was the most disgusting display (watched the whole thing) I have ever witnessed of exploiting tragedy for personal gain. Let's not forget the memo that circulated tellnig these folks what an "opportunity" this case was for pandering to the radical right. While the effect was that the parents were able to continue their fight, the intent of those voting for the legislation was far bigger than this girl's right - it was to make a political statement on behalf of the right-to-life movement they so desperately want to court.

I won't even get into the big deal Bush made of leaving his ranch to be ready to sign the legislation when it came down. It'll take him 3 days to respond to the biggest natural disaster we'll ever see, and he won't leave the ranch for that, but a photo op for the right-to-life crowd... well, I guess he owes them for the election and all.

Moreover, the "doctors" (Frist and Coburn) who lent their supposed expertise by viewing heavily edited videos and disagreeing with the medical opinions of unbiased experts who had actually spent time with Schiavo in person should be ashamed. But what do you expect from Frist, who adopted stray cats in medical school on the pretense of adoption only to dissect them. And for what? This is a man who thinks tears and sweat transmit AIDS. Not a doctor I'd go to. And Coburn is a guy who thinks that all abortion, even in cases of rape or incest - should be illegal, and who values life (ha!) so deeply that he thinks people who perform abortions should be executed (seemingly forgetting he performed a few himself). On an unrelated note, Coburn is also the freakshow who said that lesbianism was rampant in OK schools and that girls should not be allowed to go to the restrooms together. However, even though his anti-gay rhetoric is legendary, Bush appointed him to head up the HIV/AIDS advisory council, where he has chipped away at efforts to promote condom use and been on the side of various peices of legislation that would deteriorate the privacy rights of AIDS patients... actually, he has done almost nothing GOOD in that role. His compassion for life doesn't extend so much to gays, you see. Not exactly unbiased physicians, those two. So you see, politics definitely played into all of that, and those hearings were nothing BUT culture wars.


In the Senate, a key supporter of a federal remedy was Iowa Sen. Tom Harkin, a progressive Democrat and longtime friend of labor and civil rights, including disability rights. Harkin told reporters, "There are a lot of people in the shadows, all over this country, who are incapacitated because of a disability, and many times there is no one to speak for them, and it is hard to determine what their wishes really are or were. So I think there ought to be a broader type of a proceeding that would apply to people in similar circumstances who are incapacitated."

First of all, his remarks were intended in a broader context. Harkin was stating that this case brought up issues that needed to be addressed on a general level regarding people with disabilities.

A broader solution to the rights of the disabled should never include hearings on a specific medical case by people with no pertinent expertise and who are subject to constant pressure from special interests. The rights of the disabled as a group do deserve a forum, but the cynical use of one woman as a political pawn is just wrong.

Moreover, her parents' case has been heard and denied by multiple courts at this point, over a period of years. This is hardly limited.


Basically, the hypocrisy here absolutely makes my blood boil.

-- Edited by dc at 00:21, 2005-03-24

-- Edited by dc at 00:24, 2005-03-24

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Nine West

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This isn't in response to any one post...just general thoughts I've been having on this...


I have so many conflicting feelings about this situation.  I work with children with severe disabilities, many of whom look no different than Ms. Schiavo on the surface.  Many of them are on respirators, have feeding tubes, etc.  However, only a very few are receiving pallative or hospice care.  Most of them are expected to live for a long time.  Some of them more obviously interact with their environments, others not so obviously.  Many people see many of these children and assume they have no idea what is happening in their environment and/or aren't affected by their environments - I happen to strongly disagree, but that's based on my personal experience and interactions.  No two individual's cognitive functioning or ability to be affected by their environment is the same, so, in my mind, there is no way of generalizing what should or shouldn't happen to a person who is in a "persistent vegetative state" (does anyone know what that technically means?).  The question of whether "my" kids' respirators should be unplugged or their feeding tubes removed hasn't ever entered my mind.  It's not my decision.


However, I do have issues with the whole concept of guardianship.  I do not believe that any one person should ever have complete rights to determine what happens to another adult, regardless of their level of cognitive functioning.  I think there has to be some level of outside accountability for these people with such power over another's life - there are protection and advocacy groups in each state that advocate for the rights of people with disabilities.  Here is a link to the P&A agency in Florida's statement on this situation:  http://www.advocacycenter.org/news/schiavo_03-01-05.htm


One thing I find interesting, is that in this case "conservatives" and disability advocates (who, in a very broad and generalized sense, tend to be quite liberal) are on the same side.  I could be wrong, but I would be surprised if a lot of the folks with signs outside the hospice weren't with advocacy groups...(the author of the article has a neuromuscular disability of her own, as she mentioned, and is a frequent disability rights advocate/writer). 



-- Edited by june at 09:27, 2005-03-24

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Kenneth Cole

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I have to agree with dc about the husband.  Someone brought up the fact that we really don't know the husbands intentions behind this.  Can anyone really give any reason why he wants her to die?  Of all the articles I read and stories I've seen no one can say.  You can't argue that he wants her to die so that he can move on with his life and be with someone else.  He is already doing that.  You can't say that he wants her dead because of money.  There is no money.  So why was he pushing so hard to remove the feeding tube.  Ummm, maybe because THAT'S WHAT SHE WANTED. 


Is anyone really thinking about what would be best for TERRY?  It seems like everyone, including her parents, want to make a decision that's in their best interest. I would never want to be put in her parents position but I think they may be being a little selfish. I believe they want to keep her alive because they can't handle losing her (even though she is already gone).  I don't know the age of the parents but I wonder what would happen to her when they can't continue to care for her and need assistance themselves.  Would it be ok to remove the feeding tube then?  Would it then be morally right to STARVE her?


*I may be biased because of my religious beliefs but I know that there's gotta be a better life for her than this when she passes on.



-- Edited by ShanKel at 02:03, 2005-03-24

-- Edited by ShanKel at 18:10, 2005-03-24

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Nine West

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One other thing that's been on my mind...the question of whether a feeding tube is "life support".  I've worked with lots of kids with tubes, but one 4-year old little girl I worked with had a tube and she crawled around all over the place, was learning to walk, was learning to sign, and loved to play with her classmates and clap to circle-time songs.  She had a tube because of weak swallowing muscles and received no nourishment outside if her tube feedings, as she aspirated badly.  She was recieving the same "treatment" as Ms. Schiavo.  Was she on "life support"?   

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Coach

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DC thanks for mentioning Coburn and Frist.  The press misses so many issues!


I am originally from OK and am ashamed he was elected, Tom Coburn is just awful!


Still, I am on the Schindler's side just because I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt.  I think if there is immediate family that wants to continue treatment and they have willing doctors, then it should be made so.  I actually agreed with Bush's statement that it was better to "err on the side of life." 



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Gucci

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quote:

Originally posted by: ShanKel

"I have to agree with dc about the husband.  Someone brought up the fact that we really don't know the husbands intentions behind this.  Can anyone really give any reason why he wants her to die?  Of all the articles I read and stories I've seen know one can say.  You can't argue that he wants her to die so that he can move on with his life and be with someone else.  He is already doing that.  You can't say that he wants her dead because of money.  There is no money.  So why was he pushing so hard to remove the feeding tube.  Ummm, maybe because THAT'S WHAT SHE WANTED.  Is anyone really thinking about what would be best for TERRY?  It seems like everyone, including her parents, want to make a decision that's in their best interest. I would never want to be put in her parents position but I think they may be being a little selfish. I believe they want to keep her alive because they can't handle losing her (even though she is already gone).  I don't know the age of the parents but I wonder what would happen to her when they can't continue to care for her and need assistance themselves.  Would it be ok to remove the feeding tube then?  Would it then be morally right to STARVE her? *I may be biased because of my religious beliefs but I know that there's gotta be a better life for her than this when she passes on.-- Edited by ShanKel at 02:03, 2005-03-24"


 


Well said!



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BCBG

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quote:
Originally posted by: lorelei

"
Still, I am on the Schindler's side just because I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt.  I think if there is immediate family that wants to continue treatment and they have willing doctors, then it should be made so.  I actually agreed with Bush's statement that it was better to "err on the side of life." 
"


I actually feel similarly, and agree with the notion of "erring on the side of life".

Quite a shocker, but objectively, I do agree with Bush's statement - never thought I would utter these words...

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BCBG

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quote:
Originally posted by: june

"I work with children with severe disabilities, many of whom look no different than Ms. Schiavo on the surface.  Many of them are on respirators, have feeding tubes, etc.  However, only a very few are receiving pallative or hospice care.  Most of them are expected to live for a long time.  Some of them more obviously interact with their environments, others not so obviously.  Many people see many of these children and assume they have no idea what is happening in their environment and/or aren't affected by their environments - I happen to strongly disagree, but that's based on my personal experience and interactions.  No two individual's cognitive functioning or ability to be affected by their environment is the same, so, in my mind, there is no way of generalizing what should or shouldn't happen to a person who is in a "persistent vegetative state" (does anyone know what that technically means?).  The question of whether "my" kids' respirators should be unplugged or their feeding tubes removed hasn't ever entered my mind.  It's not my decision.
"


Thanks for sharing your examples.

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Dooney & Bourke

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"the intent of those voting for the legislation was far bigger than this girl's right - it was to make a political statement on behalf of the right-to-life movement they so desperately want to court"


dc--i actually agree with most of your political points--this is the only one i question (and i'm not saying you're wrong, i just truly don't understand why they are doing what they're doing).  why does bush (and the GOP, and conservatives in congress) feel the need to pander to the extreme right at this point in the game? it seems like it's pretty well-documented that this is the only group that is firmly in bush's camp.  most moderate conservatives who voted for bush did so in spite of his more radically right-wing stances (right to life, anti-gay marriage, etc.) because they supported the war, didn't want to change horses in mid-stream, cared about tax cuts, etc. etc. any number of other reasons.  it just doesn't really make sense to me--i would think from a strategy point of view that it would make more sense to move back towards the middle and try to regain the confidence of moderately conservative voters (which is the majority of americans, right?) to try to lock up GOP support going forward and into the 2008 election.  god willing, the war in iraq is not going to last forever! 


this is totally unrelated to the foregoing, but what i also don't get about this case is why the husband is still legally married to terry schiavo? is he married to the new woman? don't they have children? because if he were married to her, that seems to me to be illegal.  and if he isn't, it's not difficult to obtain an annulment, even of a long-standing marriage, once one partner is incapacitated and unable to take part in the marriage (at least in CA, i don't know what the laws are in FLA).  i guess i just question why he would stay married to her rather than having the marriage annulled, if he was going to move on and be with another woman (which i don't fault him for, actually, but that's just my personal opinion).


what i understand is his point in arguing this so strenuously is that he still loves terri and is trying to carry out her wishes (as someone else pointed out).  it seemed to me at first that he should just have the marriage annulled and move forward with his life, letting the parents assume the responsibility of decision-making and caring for terri.  but apparently he has said (and i haven't read this myself) that the reason he is fighting so hard is because he made a promise to his wife that he would carry out her wishes and is just trying to do right by her. 


so now i am more confused than ever.  honestly, i don't know what i think is right anymore on this subject. 



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