STYLETHREAD -- LET'S TALK SHOP!

Elle · Hermes

Should I?

gingembre1 · Kate Spade

Does your prof have office hours? I would bring your papers in that you disagree with her grading on to discuss with, with your points of dispute outlined beforehand. I've found that profs are usually willing to at least discuss the grade if you approach them the right way.

Kelly · Hermes

I agree about going at it under the guise of just a discussion - and when you actually start talking to her about it, you can make your points. Or, you'll at least figure out what she grades on so you can use it to your advantage next time.

Elle · Hermes

The class is entirely online, so she doesn't keep any office hours. She's very quick to respond to emails though, and because we've never spoken in person before I don't want to escalate this discussion by bringing it to her that way.

The thing is that the parameters of her grading and what this particular essay should have included were laid out plainly for all of us. In my opinion, I followed those guidelines. Normally we have a writing conference with her between turning in our rough draft and turning in our final, where she has the opportunity to make comments or suggestions. We didn't get to do that this time, and because I didn't get any suggestions at all from the peer review, I was basically turning my final paper in blind. I would have been happy to work on the things she suggested, but wasn't given the opportunity to. Frankly they seem outside the parameters of the guidelines, so even though they could make the paper better I don't think I should be docked for not including them.

G - it's good to know that you've found profs open to discussing things like this in the past. I've never had to do it before, so I didn't know if it was likely to help me or hurt me.

Miss Mabel · Kenneth Cole

I've taught writing online at the university level, and I would definitely ask her if she could give you a more detailed explanation of how your paper didn't meet her criteria, and follow that up with a request to resubmit.

In her defense, grading writing is very difficult. Lots of students (and many teachers) expect and grant A's in writing if someone wrote clearly, followed a basic organization, and met some general criteria. But, in my opinion, A's are reserved for things that are truly stellar -- inventive, creative, exhibiting a facility with writing that goes beyond following a formula. I don't expect a paper to be grammatically or mechanically perfect to get an A, but it has to have that extra polish that makes it really stand out. For all I know, yours *did* have that, and she's nitpicking about other things, but I just thought I'd offer this perspective. However, I also recognize that, basically, an A is the new B, and everyone expects candidates to have earned A's, so it's tough to be in your position as well. Uck.

If she lets you rewrite and you want a final proofread, feel free to PM me.

jj · Kate Spade

I have always had luck with the "help me do better" approach. If you show that you really care about improving the quality of your writing and grades (even if your writing is already good), profs are more inclined to help with solid feedback and better grading down the road.

I would just avoid sounding complaining in your email so she sees you as being positve and caring, which you are!

Elle · Hermes

Miss Mabel wrote:

I've taught writing online at the university level, and I would definitely ask her if she could give you a more detailed explanation of how your paper didn't meet her criteria, and follow that up with a request to resubmit.

In her defense, grading writing is very difficult. Lots of students (and many teachers) expect and grant A's in writing if someone wrote clearly, followed a basic organization, and met some general criteria. But, in my opinion, A's are reserved for things that are truly stellar -- inventive, creative, exhibiting a facility with writing that goes beyond following a formula. I don't expect a paper to be grammatically or mechanically perfect to get an A, but it has to have that extra polish that makes it really stand out. For all I know, yours *did* have that, and she's nitpicking about other things, but I just thought I'd offer this perspective. However, I also recognize that, basically, an A is the new B, and everyone expects candidates to have earned A's, so it's tough to be in your position as well. Uck.

If she lets you rewrite and you want a final proofread, feel free to PM me.

I didn't realize you're a writing teacher, Miss Mabel - thank you so much for responding! I absolutely see your point about not granting A's willy nilly, and if it were a higher level class I might not fuss. Since I don't see any of my classmates in person I can't confirm if this is true or not, but I feel like she might be grading me and the few more proficient students more harshly than the others. They must be passing with a C or better if they're still bothering with the class - the date to drop without it affecting your transcript was 2 weeks ago.

As an online instructor or an in-class instructor, do you ever have your students rely solely on feedback from other students for editing their work? We had a writing conference with the teacher for the first essay and will again for the last, but we did not this time and I'm not exaggerating when I say the only feedback I got was 'Great job!'. It seems a little unfair that we weren't allowed the benefit of at least a little educated feedback - it was the blind leading the blind.

I didn't want to overexplain my feelings that this was unfair when I asked for a chance to rewrite, lest it sound defensive or whiny. This is what I sent:

I appreciated your comments on my second essay. The comments in the peer review groups were especially short and sweet this time, and I missed having your guidance in our normal writing conference. I would really like the chance to improve my essay with your suggestions. If you would consider allowing me to edit and resubmit, I would be very happy to do so.

We shall see. I'll report back when I get a reply .

-- Edited by Elle at 19:54, 2008-08-13

Miss Mabel · Kenneth Cole

Elle wrote:
I didn't realize you're a writing teacher, Miss Mabel - thank you so much for responding! I absolutely see your point about not granting A's willy nilly, and if it were a higher level class I might not fuss. Since I don't see any of my classmates in person I can't confirm if this is true or not, but I feel like she might be grading me and the few more proficient students more harshly than the others. They must be passing with a C or better if they're still bothering with the class - the date to drop without it affecting your transcript was 2 weeks ago.

As an online instructor or an in-class instructor, do you ever have your students rely solely on feedback from other students for editing their work? We had a writing conference with the teacher for the first essay and will again for the last, but we did not this time and I'm not exaggerating when I say the only feedback I got was 'Great job!'. It seems a little unfair that we weren't allowed the benefit of at least a little educated feedback - it was the blind leading the blind.

I didn't want to overexplain my feelings that this was unfair when I asked for a chance to rewrite, lest it sound defensive or whiny. This is what I sent:

I appreciated your comments on my second essay. The comments in the peer review groups were especially short and sweet this time, and I missed having your guidance in our normal writing conference. I would really like the chance to improve my essay with your suggestions. If you would consider allowing me to edit and resubmit, I would be very happy to do so.

We shall see. I'll report back when I get a reply .

-- Edited by Elle at 19:54, 2008-08-13

That seems like a perfect request to me - not whiny or accusatory, but getting across the point that you didn't have adequate feedback. You might also consider asking if, on future assignments, you could email your draft to her for comments before you submit the final. I am always open to doing that for students, especially those who care enough to ask me and submit the paper to me before the due date for comments.

To answer your other question - my philosophy re: peer feedback is that it's never adequate.

I think most profs know that, and that's why I think most are willing to review papers themselves when students ask. HTH!

Metric · Gucci

My boss has an expression: If you don't ask, the answer is always no smile

Good luck with your prof. I think that sounds like a perfectly acceptable request.

Dizzy · Marc Jacobs

This is awful, and Miss Mabel is going to hate me. But you're taking this online? And it's basically career-focused? That sounds like it's not supposed to be an educational experience. It's supposed to qualify you as someone who took this class. There's a difference. You are paying money and she is giving you a poor grade without adequate feedback. Complain.

I never had the guts to do it in law school, but I found out later some did and it worked (if you had something to hold over the school and it wasn't in a core class). From the way you worded that email, you are quite smart about having sensitive discussions. Ask the school what you are expected to take out of this experience and mention that you could suffer at work for poor grades. Then let them give you extra credit or something to save face, but a professor in this kind of class punishing "average" work? If she's passing high school level work, but judging you like this, something is wrong. If she's not passing high school level work, you won't be the only one to complain.

However, if you are taking this online through Yale or something like that though, scratch everything I wrote. She's just being random. It happens and there's nothing you can do. A friend of mine got an exam back with B+ crossed out and B underlined and circled on it. Who the hell knows what that was? It was the difference between being top third and bottom half of the class though for first year. Which is huge for finding a job.

PS - Most schools have an appeals process that allows you to drop a class after the approved period. It sounds like it would be worth it. No offense to the teacher - she wants to educate and that's great - but she is going to hurt you. Get away from her if you can.

-- Edited by Dizzy at 11:55, 2008-08-14

Elle · Hermes

She denied my request weirdface

.

I guess I'm not sure what benefit not allowing me to resubmit has. There's maybe 12 people in our class so it's not like she's reading 30 essays each time. The first few assignments in this class, I even wrote about how jaded I was coming out of high school because of this sort of crap.

She emphasized that we would be having writing conferences for the final, and that I should just focus on making that essay the best it could be. Unfortunately, even if I get every last point out of that essay I don't know if it will be enough to undo the damage of the first two.

Miss Mabel - She specifically emailed all of us and told us she wouldn't be doing writing conferences with us on this essay, and that we should use our peer reviews for guidance. I suppose I still could have emailed her and asked her to review mine anyway, and I would have if I felt like I was having trouble with a particular area. But I didn't feel like I was having trouble, and I felt like asking for her feedback after she'd specifically said she wouldn't be giving it would be ... rude or something. Which is stupid I guess considering I'm paying dearly to take this class.

Dizzy - it's a class at a community college. They require everyone to take it pretty much regardless of what program you'll be applying to - it's the lowest college level class (english comp 115). If I were going for an english degree, this would be a different story, I agree! I really don't want to drop at this point - I'm 8 weeks into a 11 week class, and I would lose the $350 this class cost me and have to pay to take it again.

I'm going to reply and tell her that I'm dissapointed in her decision. Not sure what else I'm going to say yet, but it seems really unfair that I'm not in control of the grade I'm receiving. I don't want to criticize too harshly, but I feel like I need to make my feelings known.

Oh man I'm going to be pissed if I get an 89% in this class. Grrrrrr!

Miss Mabel · Kenneth Cole

She denied your request?! And she's refusing to do her job, which is to help you learn how to write the type of essay she is willing to grade with an A?!?!

Um. Yeah. [Gloves coming off] Now is the time to complain. If she's going to rely solely on peer reviews to teach her students, then she better be damn confident that those peer reviews are doing the trick. And if they don't, she needs to provide an alternative. I don't see her logic for not letting you resubmit, but even more concerning is the fact that she won't give you detailed feedback -- that's a major no-no. I would write back and ask her how, exactly, she expects her students to hand in polished final papers when the drafts haven't been adequately reviewed. Your point about this being a "credit" class is exactly right. English majors (the top .05% who normally test out of comp classes) deliver polished essays the first time out of the gate --- people in other majors need instruction, and that is the point of her class.

I really would press her to see if she can give you a satisfactory answer to the question of how you are supposed to learn without a process that involves quality feedback along the way. If she can't, I would take your question to the head of the department. (And "you're supposed to apply the information from the lectures/online material" isn't a good answer - that's not how people learn to write - it's by practicing and refining multiple drafts).

It's teachers like her that give the rest of us a bad name!

Hermione · Kate Spade

Elle -
In college it was not unusual for students in my school to make requests like this to teachers and often the teachers would just be happy that the student came to them and were willing to do that for them just because they were asked. There WERE, however, a couple of instances in which I didn't feel like the teacher was being fair, and I DID go to the head of the department, and the situations were resolved (in two different departments.) Do not be afraid to do that.
What Miss Mabel said was right - she had better be darned sure that peer review is flawless and plentiful enough that you have the tools you need to turn in the level of work she is looking for.
I'm not sure an introductory level writing class is the place to rely solely on peer review, and you said you didn't get much anyway.
I would write her back and say that you're so sorry to put extra work on her plate (catch more flies with honey approach) but that you truly think that this work is leagues better than your last paper, you don't understand the grade, and if it truly is not A work, you would like to learn why so that your next paper can be, and perhaps be given the opportunity to write it again.

If she has to compare the two papers in going back and showing you why this is only 4 points more than the last one, it's possible she could realize her mistake and adjust your grade (that has also happened to me.) Or, she could just be a b***h and nitpick to support herself. That's why I suggest having your emails be super nice until you do finally have to go over her head, which I would do after this next email if she doesn't become more helpful.

Elle · Hermes

I've not sent it yet, but this is my response to her email denying my request for a rewrite:

That's disappointing to hear. I am more than willing to do the work involved in getting an A in this class, but I am unclear on how students could be expected to write a paper you'd be willing to grade with an A without adequate feedback. In the peer review workshops, I made sure to give the students whose work I reviewed many suggestions with which they could improve their essays and become better writers. I did not receive the same in return, and I feel my score reflects that. As a student who is interested in becoming a better writer instead of merely passing this class, I fail to see the benefit not being able to resubmit has for my learning experience. I understand that you are busy and I hate to put more work on your plate, but I do not feel that I received the same opportunity to improve that other students did, and I believe rewriting would remedy that discrepancy.

I realize my concern over a handfull of points may seem dramatic, but I don't wish to leave my grade hinged on receiving a perfect score on my final essay, an outcome I find unlikely. If you are willing to help me achieve an A in this class without rewriting even considering how little extra opportunity I'd have in terms of points, I'm open to that. Otherwise I sincerely hope you'll reconsider my request to resubmit.

Thanks,

Elle

Thoughts? I'm concerned only with ensuring my ability to receive an A for a final grade, so please point out anything you think may jeopardize that! I really appreciate your support so far - it's been invaluable.

Miss Mabel · Kenneth Cole

I think that's very reasonable response - hopefully it will have a positive outcome. I agree with Hermione that asking her to compare the two papers might help if she still refuses the rewrite. Or, the head of the department could do that.

Good luck!

Hermione · Kate Spade

That's good -
I would send it, and if she still refuses, go straight to the head. Don't be afraid. And if she's retaliatory on your next paper as a result - take that to the head too.

Hermione · Kate Spade

hey, did she ever respond?

Elle · Hermes

Y'know, I didn't send it. She dropped a (future) assignment and graded a few completed assignments, so I have a little more wiggle room than I anticipated and an no longer concerned that I might not get my A. I am concerned for other students though, current or future, and still don't think it's appropriate for her to ask her students to rely solely on the feedback of other students. I'll have to revise the email because I'm not in need of a rewrite as I thought, but I still think it's important she knows I disagree with her approach here. I might notify the head of the department of her feedback practices as well, though I'll likely wait until the term is over for that.

I really appreciate all your feedback, girls

. I'll keep you updated.

esquiress · Marc Jacobs

How'd you end up doing, Elle?

Elle · Hermes

She ended up kissing my butt on the final essay, so I actually ended up with a rather high A. I emailed the dept. head to let them know how the teacher conducted her class, and got an email back thanking me for alerting them to the issue and assuring me the matter would be investigated further and actions taken, if deemed necessary. A little generic, but at least they've been made aware. I'll be prepared to be more proative if this situation comes up in future classes, too, which will help with feeling more in control of my grade.

So I got my A and she got the stink eye for being lazy - everybody wins

!