STYLETHREAD -- LET'S TALK SHOP!

Mia · Kate Spade

help me religious scholar nerds of the board!

honey · Gucci

not dc, but i'm almost 100% sure you're right. and i know this b/c i went to religious school for a year and we had to study the origins of christianity specifically protestantism. we studied calvin and his beliefs and i remember this b/c i thought calvinists were incredibly "stupid" (don't mean to offend but this was how i felt in 8th grade) b/c it didn't make any sense to even bother trying to be "good" since God had already decided who was going to get into heaven and it didn't matter what you did, so you might as well not even bother. anyway modern day calvinists may have changed the definition of predestination, so that it is more inclusive. but from what i remember, and the quote you included, predestination in the calvinist sense, is what you're describing. also i found a nifty little summary of calvin's beliefs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism

Mia · Kate Spade

Honey, you are not only the Oracle of Frye Boots. You are the Oracle, period.

No, seriously, thanks for posting. I think my friend is just mixing up general ideas about predestination with Calvin's specific ideas. It's so funny what you mentioned because I remember thinking exactly the same thing in university when I studied European intellectual history - it didn't seem to make much sense. If my place in heaven or hell is secure already then hell, why not just do whatever I want? Also, I remember reading that Calvin thought all of the poor and destitute on the streets of Geneva were only poor because God had not chosen them and they deserved their awful conditions, whereas all the rich people in their fancy houses were rich because they were chosen. Ummm...OK. Doesn't really seem to be my idea of what Christianity is about! Also, Calvin had a close friend burnt at the stake for missing church - a friend he had known all his life, since childhood.

I would be totally fascinated to learn about any modern day Calvinist sects. Are there any?

Maddie · Coach

Well I got a 5 on the AP European History test and I defintely learned what you said, Mia.

cc · Marc Jacobs

Yeah, you're right but I can see why your friend might be confused.

This site explains the theories of predestination and touches on what your friend might have been thinking:

The most important theological position that Calvin took was his formulation of the doctrine of predestination. The early church had struggled with this issue. Since God knew the future, did that mean that salvation was predestined? That is, do human beings have any choice in the matter, or did God make the salvation decision for each of us at the beginning of time? The early church, and the moderate Protestant churches, had decided that God had not predestined salvation for individuals. Salvation was in part the product of human choice. Calvin, on the other hand, built his reformed church on the concept that salvation was not a choice, but was rather pre-decided by God from the beginning of time. This mean that individuals were "elected" for salvation by God; this "elect" would form the population of the Calvinist church.
http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/REFORM/CALVIN.HTM

Lilykind · Hermes

Mia, you're right. I went to Catholic school and they would endlessly dog on the Calvinists' views in social studies...

(btw, where can I get nerdy friends to makes these bets with so I can wipe the floor with Frappucinos. )

honey · Gucci

quote:
Originally posted by: cc
"Yeah, you're right but I can see why your friend might be confused. This site explains the theories of predestination and touches on what your friend might have been thinking: The most important theological position that Calvin took was his formulation of the doctrine of predestination. The early church had struggled with this issue. Since God knew the future, did that mean that salvation was predestined? That is, do human beings have any choice in the matter, or did God make the salvation decision for each of us at the beginning of time? The early church, and the moderate Protestant churches, had decided that God had not predestined salvation for individuals. Salvation was in part the product of human choice. Calvin, on the other hand, built his reformed church on the concept that salvation was not a choice, but was rather pre-decided by God from the beginning of time. This mean that individuals were "elected" for salvation by God; this "elect" would form the population of the Calvinist church. http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/REFORM/CALVIN.HTM "

interesting point cc. i *think* a modern day calvinist would believe something along these lines based on your quote and the info from wikipedia.

all men are born in a state of natural depravity/sin, it is man's nature to want to live like this. (the idea of original sin is fundamental to a lot of christian religions) God has predestined everything from the beginning of time and knows who is and who isn't going to get into heaven. if you find salvation during your life, it is not the product of choice in the sense that you made a rational decision, but the result of God's irresistable grace. this is evidence of the fact that you were elected by God to be redeemed at the dawn of time, since it would be impossible for an individual to go against what has already been determined. and anyone who didn't find God, or fell away from the church was never part of the elect. so i guess being a calvinist would make sense in that respect.

cc · Marc Jacobs

so mia, did your friend concede?

i think that he/she was probably thinking about the concept of god being omniscient and therefore knowing whether or not individuals would be saved. that idea leaves room for the fact that people can shape their destiny, but god already how things are going to turn out. so i guess that sort of means people are predestined to have a particular fate, but the calvinist doctrine is much more specific.

honey, i think that what you said perfectly explains the calvinist argument. it's not really as simple as "i can do whatever i want because my fate has already been decided."

Mia · Kate Spade

Woohooo! Yes, I get $10 and a frap. If we all lived in the same town I'd get you all straws and we could share.

I read some more of Calvin's work (I quoted from it in my first post) and wow, he sure ties himself in knots trying to reconcile "merciful God" and "most of you are going to burn in hell and there's nothing you can do about it". He basically says, if you're asking questions, it's probably a sign you're hellbound. Great logic! I'll have to use that if I have kids.

Anyway I think I'll get a strawberry frap from Starbucks. Thanks for all your help! I didn't know whether or not this was something to be posting here.

cc - Yes, my friend thought it was just God foreseeing everything, but our free choice (which is still problematic in my non-religious opinion). As for 'doing whatever you want' - Calvin certainly didn't think that. It was just me who thought that, and I still do, based on what Calvin said. I've got no time for dogma. However, since I don't believe a word Calvin said, unfortunately I don't have philosophical carte blanche to do whatever I want. *sigh*

-- Edited by Mia at 20:13, 2004-12-19

cc · Marc Jacobs

congrats mia!

it's so strange, i was just thinking about calvinism the other day. can't remember why though. anyway, dork that i am, i was totally excited to see this thread!

btw when i was looking at some of the sites that we've all posted, there was mention of calvinism being carried into the 20th century. one of the pages linked to seminaries which train people in the calvinist faith. i don't know if there are any active calvinist sects around today though.

btw, what prompted this debate? i somehow got myself into an argument with my coworker about the articles of confederation the other day. i should have made a bet with him, because i was totally right.

Mia · Kate Spade

Well, we got onto it because we were talking about the concept of 'service' and how it doesn't seem like it's as valued these days as it once was. I was talking about how 150 years ago if an elder son announced he was off to be a missionary, how this was a source of pride and happiness for his family/community, but how these days I can see a lot more parents/communities reacting to that by going "wtf?! - what about getting a job/house etc. etc." I made a flippant remark about how maybe everyone we knew was a Calvinist who already knew they were going to heaven, my friend said wait, no, no, that's not what predestination means and voila...the bet was on.

I Googled and found a lot of mentions of a "Christian Reformed Church" and "Dutch Reformed Church" as well as this place: http://www.calvin.edu/ - so I think Calvinism is still around, just in little pockets.

Were the Puritans Calvinist? I found some mentions that they were. I don't know, though. I know they were hardcore Protestant but that's about all I know. Americans might know that better than me.